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Sidereal or Tropical Zodiac?
Hari Malla wrote:
The coming new world order is possible only with one month shift of our Nirayan Hindu calendar. Our Vedic calendar can never be tropical only as you claim. You are over impressed by the Christian calendar. Our calendar is tropical as well as sidereal in a coordinated way. Also for the new world order the Christians need to take up the lunar dates for their celebrations and the Moslems need to take up the seasons into their calendar. Do you agree? Hari Malla
Hari Malla, we meet again.
I consider your letter to be important because for a number of years there has been an on-going debate as to which ‘zodiac’ is the true one and should be followed for calendrical considerations.
As you are aware, I consider the tropical zodiacal computations to be the only means to capture the body of higher knowledge the zodiac contains, and which has been a means to keep the perennial knowledge available to humankind across the millennia. Having stated that, for me the only important point to highlight is the zodiac itself, with its hieroglyphs and animal symbols that are modified between cultures, as for example has been the case with Makar/Capricorn. Then, to create a calendar that allows us to apply that knowledge for an entire civilisation, as has been done across the ages and for all societies, we need to have the accurate ZERO POINT. That is, when do we set the zodiacal wheel in motion; without the correct starting point no knowledge will come forth from this sacred wheel. And please note that this sacred script is primarily for initiatic purposes, as it was in all the ancient civilisations, the Vedic included, where it was described as the Journey of the Aryan. Predictive usage was secondary. However, we cannot deny that astrology based on this script can produce fine results as a tool for prediction, but that was not the reason for its preservation over the millennia; lamentably in India astrology has descended only to the level of a predictive art, devoid of higher knowledge and purpose.
As in all things on this blessed planet, we turn to then Sun for illumination – be this the physical Sun to which Hindus send forth praises on a daily basis at dawn; or be it the inner, subtle Sun, upholder of the outer phenomenon. The Sun is seen to move along the ecliptic (the plane on which the planets travel in their respective orbits around the Sun) and is a harmony that is unchanging.
This ecliptic plane is balanced on the four Cardinal Points which we experience on Earth as East (corresponding to Aries, the first zodiacal sign), the second as South (Cancer), then West (Libra), and finally North (Capricorn/Makar). According to the Rig Veda this ‘one wheel’ is stable and unchanging (‘it shakes not in the least’):
Twelve spokes, one wheel, navels three.
Who can comprehend this?
On it are placed together
Three hundred and sixty like pegs.
They shake not in the least.
(Rig Veda 1.164.48)These four pillars are wisely incorporated in every Hindu temple when the Vastu Purush is laid out as the foundation plan at the start of construction: the orientation is to those very Cardinal Points. It is the same in the Great Pyramid at Giza, with an orientation that is astonishingly accurate. Therefore we can well assume that wisemen and women across the ages were as aware of the unshakable four pillars, on which our Earth Time finds its balance, as the ancient Rishis were. All pagan civilisations followed the same process: the calendar devised by the wise for the society always ‘followed’ the Sun. It started with the first sign Aries at the first Cardinal Point, the equinox on 21-22 March each year, with no variation. This balance on the four pillars translates itself into the four seasons. With accuracy in this single item, the 365 days of the year would find their place in the Harmony.
In your letter which I have included in Aeon Forum for detailed discussion (and I am inviting you and your friends to join in the debate), you refer to this arrangement as the ‘Christian calendar’. That is a remarkable misconception for one who prides himself on being knowledgeable in these matters: the calendar used throughout the world (and adopted as the official method of computation for all governmental purpose within India and with the world at large) is in no way Christian as you claim. Though I have clarified this for you and the others on many occasions, you persist in calling it ‘Christian’ – the reason can only be to add fuel to the fire by casting this entirely Vedic methodology into a negative light. This reveals a bias that is not consistent with a thoughtful, serious and unbiased debate. True higher knowledge can never enter a consciousness of this sort. If you don’t believe me, look up the historical facts. Pope Gregory simply introduced reforms in the existing Roman (pagan) calendar in the 1500s for greater accuracy. Therefore, to call it a Christian calendar is misleading – and I suspect that it is done to imply that being born in the West I MUST be Christian; and further that therefore the entire body of higher knowledge I offer is only a tactic to impose Christianity on Hindus! Is this your secret contention?
Getting back to the Vedic verse quoted above, the next important item is mention of ‘one wheel’. This is truly the single-most important clue the Veda provides for seekers across the ages, but ‘Who can understand this?’ the Rishi wisely asks. That single (‘one’) circle – the ecliptic divided into 12 ‘spokes’ with 360 ‘pegs’, is unchanging (‘they shake not in the least’). It is the KNOWLEDGE background for the entire science of Jyotish or rather the ART, I would say. This has been proven time and again; but in the course of this debate we can bring to the public the proof I can provide to substantiate the statement. For this is the issue here: we want proof for everything that is stated. By this I mean an application in higher knowledge of what is sustained. In other words, the statement must be able to show results of its application in a body of knowledge based on that special sacred Language – it is the background Language that has been with us since time immemorial.
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Finally, I need to point out that Nirayani astrologers base their calculation of the Zero Point ON THE WRONG CIRCLE. You use the sidereal with its constellations composed of Fixed Stars many light years away from Earth. According to your claim that zodiac ‘has shifted’ its Zero Point, for which a rectification is required both for the calendar and all matters astrological. But the true one and only zodiac is the 12-part division of the ecliptic plane, marked off by the four pillars of Earth Time, the equinoxes and solstices. That outer distant circle is the invention of astronomers when astronomy became a separate discipline from astrology. The heavens speak to us in the language of the zodiac symbols. Otherwise we have what the astronomers have given us: a meaningless dark void; they fill it by projecting the zodiac onto those distant stars and imaginatively designing the zodiacal symbols therein – which is a totally inconsequential exercise since those animal symbols do not cover a neat 30 degrees, as the Rig Veda prescribes. Any sincere seeker knows this. Yet to accommodate this misconception, Nirayanis have resorted to using predominantly the Nakshatras instead of the Sun sign of an individual at birth, though the Nakshatras do not contain a body of higher knowledge as the tropical wheel does. It all becomes a meaningless exercise. And this is what we are told has reached us from the Rishis! This debate will prove otherwise.
More explicitly, Nakshatras are an important element in zodiacal lore, not restricted to India. They arise not out of a fictitious sidereal zodiac divided into segments of 30 degrees, a wholly arbitrary application, it needs to be added. They are fundamental divisions of that ‘one circle’ of the Veda, based on the mean motion of the Moon – i.e. 13.20 degrees are counted, starting with the correct Aries/March equinox and moving forward throughout the entire circle adding segments of 13.20 along the way. This addition process, lunar in essence, results in what is appropriately called the Mansions of the Moon; I believe it was Al Biruni who found them in India and now bear his name. Whatever their usefulness in locating which planet may have greater significance in an individual’s horoscope when found on one of these 13.20 ‘critical’ degrees, with remarkable precision I might add, the original Nakshatras, or Mansions of the Moon, never displace the greater ‘one circle’ of the zodiacal 12, as is presently the case in India. These are always secondary divisions within that One Wheel. Various enlightened methods of dividing the Circle has been India’s contribution to the sacred art of Astrology.
There is the question of the lack of accuracy in the sidereal sphere. Not only is it because of the distance involved which compounds the error tat is translated on Earth in perhaps hundreds of years, the fact is the Nirayana system is entirely speculative. The equinoxes and solstices, our fixed and unchanging pillars of Earth time, are not speculative. Nor do they require the wisdom of any pundit or scientist to help us navigate through the labyrinth of cosmic harmonies with the required accuracy. This is the domain of the mystic, the sage, the seer. Year in and year out the tropical zodiac commences on the equinox of 21-22 March; no guessing is required, no rectification as in the Nirayana system. We are blessed with an arrangement that eliminates speculation and consequent error;because the sidereal sphere does not have equinoxes and solstices, there is no absolute Zero Point (the four Cardinal Points indicated in the diagram below). Being practical people the ancients would never have accepted to fall into the black hole of speculation in such a vital part of the civilization’s collective expression. Indeed, thankfully India did adopt the universal calendar (which you erroneously call Christian) for official use, leaving Hindus to engage endlessly in trying to come to terms with the lack of that vital Zero (point) – and, ironically, it was India’s sages (not scientists) who gave the concept of Zero to the world.
In all pagan societies whose calendars were based on the true knowledge, the year always started with the March equinox (in India according to the Nirayana system it starts 23 days after the equinox based on the irrational and speculative ‘rectification’ – where none is required), and the months therefore were named accordingly. For example, March comes from Mars, ruler of that first sign Aries. Moving on from that point we have September from the Latin that is derived from the word meaning seven, or the 7th month from that equinox – and indeed it marks entry into the 7th zodiacal sign, Libra; then the 8th and October with entry into the 8th sign Scorpio, again from the Latin for 8, the 9th in November, the 10th in December, and so on. This is what we find in the Veda as well: the month of the Victory is the 10th, or December/January counted from that same March equinox, like in all ancient civilisations.
Here are two diagrams illustrating the erroneous circle used by Nirayanis in constructing a horoscope. They employ the outer circle of stars (sidereal) which is light years away from Earth and ‘shifts’ wildly with each astrologer and astronomer giving their own calculations for the ‘rectified’ zero staring point (ayanamsha) of the wheel. We all know that the constellational sphere is used as the backdrop to measure the passage of the astrological ages of thousands of years (see The Map of 12 Manifestations) via the Precession of the Equinoxes; but never for casting the individual’s horoscope or for ritual timings within our Earth year of a mere 365 days. But the Precession too is basically an Earth measure because it is the equinoctial plane that traces a line across the heavens. However, this is not determined by the sidereal sphere but rather that ecliptic plane where the Sun’s family of planets travels in precise orbits. The zodiac is projected out there for the purpose – i.e. the very same circle divided into 12 of 30 degrees each, not the irrational constellations astronomers have made up of the zodiacal images imaginatively designed on the basis of the fixed stars and bearing no empirical truth: they are the result of astronomers seeking a tangible item, something that they can see and therefore measure – even if that measure be entirely inaccurate; it makes no different to the astronomer as he thrusts himself into a domain reserved for the sage; the intervention of astronomers has only created huge confusion where there need be none.
To be more precise, in conclusion it is virtually impossible to determine the correct Zero Point in that sphere; this is secret and sacred Knowledge that comes through in a special initiation. It is, above all, revealed by the appearance of Vishnu’s Avatars. Without that knowledge, accuracy cannot come; for this reason there are so many ayanamshas (zero points of the wheel). Even a slight variation, given the enormous distance over which we are measuring can mean centuries in Earth time.
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Dear Hari Malla,
In your reply to Thea’s posting you wrote:
‘Dear Theaji,
Thank you for writing a long reply to my suggestions. The Earth, the orign of Time, is our mother who takes us to the eternal Father who is beyond time and is the space of sun and the stars.. The earth timings and the solstices and equinoxes are necessary as a starting point in our journey to the other world. But itself is not our goal but only a refernce to start with. WE have to go beyond to the eternal space of star world of sun and the stars to achieve the ultimate unmoving truth. The solstices of the earth is moving wheel due to precession. The unmoving circle is the circle of stars beyond. Please note that the sun also being one of the stars is unmoving and is known as our Atma.
Also we have three types of solstices and equinoxes namely the tropical, sidereal and the lunar. The first is Brahma’s solstices which is what you are describing. The other is Vishnu’s solstices and equinoxes which are the sidereal solstices and equinoxes. The third is the lunar solstices which is Shiva’s solstices and equinoxes which coordinate the other two.. WE are prohibited to celebrate by the Brahma’s solstices because it takes us not to eternity but to the world of creation of life which is temporary and is thus finally to be avoided…’
For the benefit of those new to our discussion group I want to point out that one of the most important purposes of our new website is to differentiate the Old from the truly New Way. The Old way, (Hari Malla’s preferred choice) is characterized by irreconcilable dualities which feature prominently in all of his arguments; the moving vs. the unmoving, this world vs. the ‘other’, time vs. eternity, Sidereal vs. Tropical. It is a bi-polar Mental ideology which by its very nature cannot resolve and integrate the apparent dualities of existence. So what does the Mind do with what it cannot Unify? It creates specious and paradoxical arguments and re-jiggles the ancient myths, scripture, and undeniable astronomical facts to support a static model (Being) which characterizes that which moves, (the Becoming) as simply an unimportant reference point in our journey to that other glorious world. In putting forward this ‘ultimate unmoving truth’ as the highest possible attainment Hari Malla dismisses Time, Matter, Destiny, Meaning and Purpose and the Earth itself as irrelevant to our goal; how did he put it…’things that should be avoided’. Does anyone seriously believe this nonsense?
Readers should understand that the underlying premise of Hari Malla-ji’s entire argument is due to an evolutionary limitation (the Old Mental Model) that has now been surpassed by what Sri Aurobindo called the Supermind. As Thea explains:
‘Supermind is the faculty that is now changing the human being’s capacity to observe and measure. What before in both science and spirituality could only be expressed in terms of paradoxes and irreconcilables, can now be perceived in a vastly truer light.Mind indeed deforms the experience when it is used as the highest instrument of perception. And in both approaches Mind has been the tool, with its resultant language, insufficient and inadequate to express the higher reality in anything better than paradoxes. With the advent of Supermind this limitation is no longer felt; and with it comes the perception of the true nature of creation, – in particular with respect to that which moves and hence to time and matter.’ The New Way, Vol . 3, 1983, Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet
Of course he will deny the existence of the Supermind and continue to put forward his rank speculations as fact but for the benefit of the other seekers and scholars who are interested in these integral Truths and want to join the discussion, we will offer irrefutable proof of the facts we present. As Thea wrote, our new cosmology is simple, clear and unencumbered. It offers a vision of the whole that puts myth, scripture and astronomical facts in their proper place. Moreover it reveals the deepest mysteries of the Veda that have been misinterpreted for thousands of years. I sincerely believe that people who join this discussion will prefer facts to the unprovable speculations that Hari Malla offers.
Subjects presently under discussion:
(Rig Veda 1.164.48) the passage which discusses the unshakable four pillars, on which our Earth Time finds its harmonious balance
(Atharva Veda 10.8) where you will find the passage describing the ecliptic divided into 12 ‘spokes’ with 360 ‘pegs’ and the One Wheel.
The differences between the Nirayana and Sayana systems vis-à-vis the Ayanamsha or correctly rectified starting point.
The references in the Veda . (RigVeda 1.154) to Vishnu Trivikrama which clearly indicate the Tropical Zodiac and the procession of the signs leading to the ‘tenth month of Victory’
Vishnu’s Line of Ten Avatars which I have discussed in the ‘Keys to the Map of the 12 Manifestations’ on the Articles section of the ACC website.
We will be happy to discuss these and other matters with newcomers to our group but as we are prepared to give non-speculative proofs of the points we make, we would appreciate that you do as well.
Regards,
Robert
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Hari and all,
Your statement makes me wonder how you can be involved with Jyotish at all! You are aspiring to the timeless, beyond the cosmic manifestation, to that which is unmoving, unchanging. So, I have to ask again, why are you dealing with the essentials of a creation in matter? Why put so much effort into correcting anything if you do not understand the very essence of astrology which is nothing but a study of Time, on the basis of the very structure of our solar system? Yet you say these studies are merely a springboard to that which is unmoving and hence beyond Time! What an incongruous situation.
I have written extensively on the point you make in your reply. It is a classic reply and the proof of what I have stated time and again: the fundamental problem with the Nirayana System is that it indicates precisely what you have written: “…our mother takes us to the Eternal Father who is beyond time…our starting point to the other world…we have to go beyond to the ultimate unmoving truth.” This is what basing all your calculations on the circle of so-called fixed stars indicates, to anyone who is even minimally conversant with the basics of psychology. It is the cause of all our woes on this [planet and particularly in India.
This is such a revealing declaration. I sustain that the problems India has faced increasingly for the past 2000 years is precisely the error of the quest to the Beyond. Otherworldliness is the truly damaging factor for Hinduism. Sri Aurobindo’s main task was to change the direction of the yogic quest. Your statement proves the point.
The cosmic harmonies are not for you and the rest of the Nirayanis who deny the Earth’s own truth: the Earth for you is a mere springboard to the Beyond. How sad. And on this basis you pretend to instruct others as to the correct way to unravel the Cosmic Harmonies while planted on this precious Earth?
I am sorry to say that none of your arguments (entirely speculative, I need to add) make any sense and are not worth deliberating after your first paragraph. Please try to understand why I state this. It is important. And further, mine is an APPLIED COSMOLOGY. In order to convince me of your ‘three solstices’, kindly provide the FACTUAL proof as I do throughout my work. Facts. Astrology is practical, not speculative. And by this I do not mean predictions. I mean facts of higher Knowledge. I can write volumes on the applicability of the cosmic harmonies that make sense out of our life on this planet, not in the Unmoving Beyond. I am in the material moving universe, which in its entirety is the Body of the Supreme – that is, the Mother, the ever-moving Shakti. She speaks to me through that Body. Does she speak to you at all?
I had to jump into the forum because Hari’s statement is the best proof available of the wrong direction of the search – any search – and what we must avoid like the plague! Robert has expressed the newness of our times perfectly well. Let’s take it up from there. Thea
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Finally I understand Hari Malla’s underlying premise. Over the years he has thrown up a lot of arguments or enticing premises which now seem irrelevant or more superficial. He now explains how he sees the earth – and the quest.
This interaction between ACC and his group has been very enlightening and should be studied by all students of The New Way as a good example (maybe a case study) of the difference between the old and the new spirituality. Thank you Hari Malla…and staff of ACC for getting to the core of this evolutionary/existential dilemma.
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Dear Hari Malla,
Madam Thea asks that you not send her any more personal emails. She will only answer your questions on the ACC forum.
In my reply to your last posting I asked that you and others who may wish to join the discussion not indulge in unsupported speculation or make claims that cannot be documented. Let me give you a specific example of this in your latest. You claim that the Supermind is what the Vedas call the ‘eternal Brahmah’ which according to you is our ultimate goal. If you have read Sri Aurobindo’s writings at all you will understand that the aim of his yoga was the utmost possible total perfection, the establishment of the Life Divine UPON THIS EARTH, not what you describe as some ‘beyond to the eternal space of star world of sun and the stars to achieve the ultimate unmoving truth’.
‘The Supramental Yoga foresees the possibility of a material union with the Divine. It is the union of the “Earth” of the Veda with the divine Principle, an earth which is said to be above our earth, that is to say, the physical being and consciousness of which the world and the body are only images. But the modern Yogas hardly recognise the possibility of a material union with the Divine.’Sri Aurobindo, Letter to the Mother, The Mother’s Collected Works, 1915.
The principal feature that unites these two realms within a single Integral Vision is a New System of Measure, a non-speculative formula that reveals the utter perfection of a Supramental Consciousness as it deploys itself ON THE EARTH. Sri Aurobindo and Thea have taken great care to differentiate the Transcendent consciousness from the Supermind, whose characteristics are: exactness, clearness and order both in the total and the details and their relations. Thea has written volumes on this exactness and specificity and given numerous examples of the Supermind deploying itself on the physical earth.
You, on the other hand, come out with these outlandish unsupported claims which can neither be verified nor measured.
‘… the Super mind is actuallly the universal gravitational field of the sun reaching out right to the surounding stars of the zodiacs.. Thus This is the same thing as the goal of eternity of sun and the stars, of which I have talked of in my previous mail..The earth’s gravitation makes the world with its Time, matter, fate, etc and the sun’s universal gravitation makes the kingdom of heaven, the eternal truth. This eternal truth (Impersonal God or Brahmah ) may also be termed as the Supermind.’
I am delighted that we finally have the Aeon Centre of Cosmology forum to expose this rambling nonsense to legitimate scholars and seekers who want to know more about Sri Aurobindo’s and Thea’s work and what it means for India and the world. It is time for a REAL DISCUSSION on important matters with men and women who demand a higher standard of knowledge than the fiction you are putting forward as fact. I invite then to join me in un-masking your fictitious claims so that we can get on with matters of REAL KNOWLEDGE.
Robert
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Dear Mr. Wilkinson,
Shall we reframe our discussion again. I am surley with you all in your set goals in this forum. I want to reform the Hindu calendar in the Hindu way ..I want the ancient spirit is not lost in the process of reform.You are asking me to reform by throwing the baby witth the bath tub. I am saying let us not throw the baby away. So let us reflect the present position of equinoxes and solstices in our Hindu calendar but by the Hindu way.. Let the ancient characteristics of Hinduism being reflected in the nirayan calendar not be lost even after the reform in the sayan fashion. This is all I ask. Let there be a marriage between Shiva and Shakti. But let us not give up Shiva altogether in our attempt to worship Shakti. This is all I ask. Is this acceptable to you.and others?
Thank you,
Hari Malla
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Hari, your response quoted above, and to which I replied (rather astonished!) seemed to be explained in a recent article published in Swarajya by Prof V. Anantha Nageswaran. I wrote an Open Letter in response which is carried on this website. He writes, ‘The brainwashing of Indians with Western thought, arguments and conclusions continue even though India was no longer ruled by the British. Nearly a millennium of invasion, colonisation and occupation of minds, land and people have robbed Indians of the memory of their rich and historical collective knowledge… Indeed, Hindus have struggled to redefine themselves ever since the rise of Abrahamic faiths…’
This redefining is the issue. It has been a case of trying to mould Hinduism to meet with approval of the colonisers. This has been carried over to the matter of cosmic harmonies. These are essentially the Becoming, hence the Shakti, the Goddess – and this is what had to be ELIMINATED from Hinduism to make it palatable to those of Abrahamic faiths, given that they were rulers, since diol worship is part and parcel of the manifestation of the Shakti. The connection may be obscure for you, but it is fact. When you exclude the truth of that which moves from your ladder of lower to higher consciousness, you are denying the Shakti. You will claim that this is not true, that you and a billion Indian Hindus worship the Goddess daily and pay homage to her in temple rituals throughout the subcontinent. But if you probe the matter deeply like a true scientist, you will discover that denial of all that Moves is denial of Her.
In this light, how can you discover the true Divine Measure, or Maya? One has to be passionate about Her, to have her innermost truths revealed. This whole cosmos is Her Body – for God’s sake. And the Earth is her favourite abode within our solar system.
Supermind alone can reconcile Being and Becoming. Working with the true key to the cosmic harmonies is the way to the Truth of that which Move. I realise you may not be interested, but please realise that this discussion intends to go much deeper than a mere academic back-and-forth on sidereal versus tropical. There is much more involved, and is exposed in your replies. We have to go very, very deep. Thea
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Dear Mr. Wilkinson,
To reform the calendar as I have said above is to use the manawantar system. This is done by shifting one whole month at a time not by shifting one day at a time like in the gregorian calendar. In the Gregorian calendar the lunar dates are not attached to the solar dates. But in our system we attach the lunar dates too in our luni-solar system. Thus we have to shift the whole month in the sayan fashion, every time we reform, say in about 2150 years.. It is a quantized shift sytem..
Why do you want us to give up our traditionally accepted method of reform and do away with all nirayan characteristics? please remember Shiva has two wives. One is Ganga ( who gives us salvation, nirayan) and othe other is Parvati ( who takes care of our life, sayan). Parvati is mother Earth and Ganga is the circle of nakshyatras. Shiva, our Spirit, needs both- life and salvation.
Hari Malla
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Robert will answer, Harimala, but I just need to clarify that in my cosmology I do not at all eliminate the measure reached through the Precession of the Equinoxes. And it is theayanamsha IN THAT CIRCLE that corrections are attempted – in the passage of the Ages or Manvantaras. My point is that you cannot apply that Measure, assuming it is correct, to individual horoscopy, as well as temple and ritual timings. Because this is what is done now, since temples follow Nirayana astrology, there is variation in timings between one pundit and another. There has to be because you have no Absolute Measure – which is only given by the Equinoxes and Solstices. They are unchanging, not the stars. A measure based on the constellations can never be absolute. only relative.
My Map of the 12 Manifestations deals with the larger cycles based on the circle traced by the equinoctial plane. But that too, I sustain, is a measure sacred TO THE EARTH, and determined by her movements. There is no projection beyond. You seek the measure OUT THERE. That is where we differ. I follow the Earth in all ways because we incarnate here, and it is here that Truth must be discover.
Fonally, the proof is whether or not the date given for that Zero Point serves our purposes or not. I believe I have provided enough proof. Thea
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Dear Madame Theaji,
I have no problem in going deeper. i can well understand the harmony between Shiva an Shakti. In fact I am only trying to respect both. In the Scientific sense, it is the marriage between the earth and the moon resutling in the E-M barycenter which is connected to the stationery sun. Only the marriage of Shva and Shakti can saatisfy our heart. Then our heart being fully satisfied becomes quiet. Shakti is the sayan solstices and equinoxes, Shiva is the lunar date of the full moon etc at these same points and their marriage at these different points of sosltices and equinoxes, results in the nirayan sun and our heart is satisfied in the form of the various Avatars of the sun ( Vishnu)…
In the final sense of the four cardinal points as Satya Treta, Dwapar and Kali, we have Kallki avatar of Satya yuga relfected at the Autumn equinox, Rama avatar of Treta yuga at the winter solstice, Krishna avatar of Dwapar yuga at the vernal equinox and Buddha avatar of Kali yuga at the summer solstice. But during these four yugas we have the same nirayan points valid for the four cardinal directions.. We shift the nirayan points by one month only when we have to shift the manawantars after about 2000 years.. The full cycle of precession is the day of Brahmaji or kalpa with 14 or 12 such manawantar shifts..This is as proposed by the surya sidhanta although they have not got the value of kalpa as 26,000 years as should have been..
thank you .
Hari Malla
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Dear Devindra,
Your question implies an Absolute Truth which it is assumed is automatically reflected in any discussion of Cosmology.
While that Absolute Truth exists – the ability to SEE it and describe it as IT IS varies widely. Just as there are, in any area of academia and science many theories to explain physical and social phenomena, so are there many cosmological theories which attempt to explain the nature of our Universe. See the definition of ‘cosmology’ below:
From Wikipedia: Cosmology (from the Greek κόσμος, kosmos “world” and -λογία, -logia “study of”), is the study of the origin, evolution, and eventual fate of the universe. Physical cosmology is the scholarly and scientific study of the origin, evolution, large-scale structures and dynamics, and ultimate fate of the universe, as well as the scientific laws that govern these realities.[1] Religious or mythological cosmology is a body of beliefs based on mythological, religious, and esoteric literature and traditions of creation and eschatology.
The term ‘Thea’s Cosmology’ differentiates her revelations regarding ‘ . . . the origin, evolution, and eventual fate of the universe’ from all the others. As explained here and in her voluminous other works, what distinguishes Thea’s Cosmology is her identification, through yogic realizations, of the correct ayanamsha (Zero Point), the use and role of Time and Measure, and the ability to provide FACTUAL PROOF for her statements.
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Dear Jan,
Yoga is marriage of earth and the moon at the Earth-moon barycenter which is the monthly Sun known as the Aditya, Purush, or Consciousness or Sunday..but Theaji does not seem to care about this essence of conciousness. She is biased to the earth time only and its motion. The consciousness or the Observer is defined as being closer to the Space as Shiva. Theaji does not seem to worry about this. She is lost in the maze of time and begining of time. But not the space which contains time and even transcends it..
Hari Malla
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Dear Hari Malla,
I agree and think it would be very helpful to reframe our discussion. Let me make a few suggestions which may go a long way toward eliminating any misunderstandings and confusing differences in language.
In Thea’s last letter she pointed out a glaring contradiction in your position that you seem to have overlooked. In spite of the fact that you pay homage to the Goddess, your assertion of an ‘ultimate unmoving truth’ is a complete denial of the Shakti. As she said, your denial of ‘All that Moves’ is a denial of Her. This brings to mind something that Sri Aurobindo wrote that applies to much of what you have brought to this discussion.
‘…But our Hinduism, our old culture are precisely the possessions we have cherished with the least intelligence; throughout the whole range of our life we do things without knowing why we do them, we believe things without knowing why we believe them, we assert things without knowing what right we have to assert them, – or, at most, it is because some book or some Brahmin enjoins it, because Shankara thinks it, or because someone has so interpreted something that he asserts to be a fundamental Scripture of our religion. Nothing is our own, nothing is native to our intelligence, all is derived…’ Sri Aurobindo, On the Importance of Original Thinking, Sri Aurobindo Archives and Research, Volume 5, No 1, April 1981
As you will know by now, all of Madam Thea’s work and Cosmology is the result of yoga and original thinking. She has probed deeply, like a scientist, into the foundations of the Vedic knowledge, testing and experiencing everything of which she writes. All of her discoveries carry the Supramental signature of exactness, clearness and order. It is what is called the ‘Divine Maya’ which in its original sense meant the precise measure of the truth of things, their essence, law and operation. This is the sacred function of the Hindu goddess ‘Saraswati’ who represents that stream of inspiration which descends from the plane of Truth Consciousness.
If we are to ‘re-frame’ our discussion to any meaningful end Hari, you are going to have to abandon the age encrusted dogma you bring to the conversation and go deeply into the reality and implications of what you have been presenting as indisputable fact. In so doing I believe that you will discover a great many more contradiction than just a denial of the Goddess.
We can begin by examining your statement about reforming the Hindu calendar in the, ‘Hindu way… Let the ancient characteristics of Hinduism being reflected in the nirayan calendar not be lost’. This statement hearkens back to what Sri Aurobindo wrote about ‘asserting things without knowing what right we have to assert them’. For example, based on the present system the entire Hindu community celebrates the Makar Sankranti on January 14th, a date that has nothing whatever to do with the Winter/Capricorn Solstice, the Sun’s movement into the Upper Hemisphere, or the cosmological content of the Veda where these rituals find their deepest meaning. It is a meaningless date derived from the now discredited Nirayana calendar that makes its celebration a hollow pretense with virtually no beneficial spiritual effect on its practitioner. The Inner Awakening intended by the Vedic Rishis, that could only come through an experiential awareness of the Cosmic Truths by repeating and reliving precise points in the sacrificial year have become lost in the mists of Sidereal time. What we have today, as Thea wrote in her article on the ‘Guru Purnima’, is a system where the meaningful connections simply are not made. And without these critical connections there can be no restoration of Sanatana Dharma and thus no Hindu renaissance.
With regard to this calendar reform you go on to say:
‘To reform the calendar as I have said above is to use the manawantar system. This is done by shifting one whole month at a time not by shifting oen day at a tiem like in the grgorain calendar. In the Ggorain calaendar teh lurn dates are not attched to teh soalr dates. But in our system we attache the lunar dates too in our luni-solar system. Thus we have to shift the whole month in the sayan fashion, every time we reform, say in about 2150 years.. It is a quantized shift sytem..’
Notwithstanding the Vedic admonition that the ‘One Wheel with its Three hundred and sixty like pegs shakes not in the least’, how do you accurately find the correct Zero point or Ayanamsha from which these ‘shifts’ occur? As Thea wrote, you have no Absolute Measure.
There are at least six mainstream authorities whose ayanamsha calculations differ from each other, some by a considerable degree. Discrepancies of this kind in this most important of all calendar measures are completely unacceptable and cannot lead to any meaningful reform.
And since you cannot guarantee an accurate Ayanamsha, how can you hope to locate the accurate timing for the appearance of Vishnu’s Avatars? Only Thea has been able to locate the exact order and timing of Vishnu’s emanations, a point which I discuss in the Keys to the Map of the 12 Manifestations in the ‘Articles’ section of the ACC website. And with her non-speculative and precise measure of the correct Ayanamsha, she has been able to definitively exclude the Buddha from the Line of Ten Avatars in spite of the fact that most Hindus BELIEVE he is the 9th of Vishnu’s line.
So you see Hari, we can no longer proceed on beliefs alone no matter how ancient or culturally embedded they have become. Dogma must be challenged, tested and if found lacking, excluded. This is exactly what the Avatar comes to do and in this process the Perennial Truths, (Sanatana Dharma) are restored and Updated. This is the Age of Gnosis. The choice is yours, hopeless confusion and contradiction or Knowledge.
Robert
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Dear Mr. Wilkinson,
Thank you for agreeing to reframing our discussion. I think I have been misudnerstood.
I like your word ‘divine Maya’.. In the common Nepali language we use the word ‘maya’ to mean just ‘love.’ Say love of our family or country etc..This love if expressed in science of physicas it amounts to saying ‘gravity’. Now this word gravity can be earth’s gravity, moon’s gravity or solar gravity. In philosophy and also practial life the earth’s gravity is said to be of a lower nature. The moon’s gravity would be called as spirtual discrimination which negates worldly or material attachment. The solar gravity would be what we call as Bhakti or Devotion..All these three types of gravity we experience, do meet at a common point we call as the E-M barycenter, which may be termed as the monthly sun or Sunday and this concept is what we normally term as Trinity God( Ishwar). It is best experienced at the vernal equioctial lunar month of Chaitra.
Now you will underestand if we take Shakti or the divine Maya to mean gravitational field, then God is also just Shakti or the divine Maya. When i say the unmoving truth, i mean the universal gravitational field of the sun which extends from the sun right to the surroundiing stars. This is the highest expression of the Divine Maya in the form of the Ultimate truth which never moves. The motions of the earth and the moon are lower expressions of that Divine Maya…i think you and Madame Theaji both will agree with me in this sense of unmoving truth, since she also said the whole universe is Shakti. ? Will this explanation bridge the conceptual gap between us? By time and I mean the motions of the earth resulting in human time only. If we go to the universe which is not moving, then we transcend the time created by the earth’s motions and also the illusions created by the earth’s motions in making us believe that the sky with the sun and the stars move relatively…Thus the illusion of the relative motions of th sky is creatd by aerth’s motions. This illusion is ultimately to be avoided by developing our internal or divine Vision through yogic meditations.
Hari Malla
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Dear Jan,
You said “Thea’s Cosmology is her identification, through yogic realizations, of the correct ayanamsha (Zero Point), the use and role of Time and Measure, and the ability to provide FACTUAL PROOF for her statements.”
My questions:
1. what is the correct ayanamsha (Zero Point) as per Thea
What are the FACTUAL PROOFS of Her Cosmology? What is Her Cosmology?
regds
Devinder
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Hari Malla, what you fail to understand is that everything is interconnected and interwoven and the Divine Consciousness pervades everything. This is the vision of the Supermind, a faculty which enables us to see holistically and appreciate the Wholeness and the Components of the Wholeness and also the Relationships between the Components and the Whole.
In other words, we cannot simply talk about calendar reform without realising that it is a part and parcel of our evolving consciousness and (also the Divine Consciousness) and hence even as we talk about it, we are talking about our own consciousness and its relationship to everything out there.
The sidereal calendar (nirayana) is in many ways the expression of the Hindu consciousness over the past 1000 years or so, when otherworldliness was the chief feature of the national life, and hence it is only natural that we looked out to the stars for our salvation. The inaccuracy brought about by using sidereal calendar should not have mattered to the Hindus since they were never concerned with wordly life. For those living in that Age of Pisces (234 B.C to 1926 A.D.), the goal of life was the unmoving and the ultimate and they naturally looked down on earth life (with disastrous consequences) and therefore the Nirayana Calendar was perfect, reflecting the spirit of those times.
But with the coming of Sri Aurobindo and the reversal of direction of the yogic quest from the “beyond outside the creation” to a “divine life on earth”, we are in a New Age and therefore there is going to be an evolutionary pressure with respect to how we relate with Time and the Beyond or the Ultimate. Clearly the Nirayana calendar with its emphasis on the stars “out there” which you associate with the Unmoving Transcendent Shiva, cannot serve the purpose in this Age of Aquarius with its focus on Divine Perfection on this Planet. In fact, in the Sri Aurobindo Ashram it is the Sayana Calendar that is used, and even the Dual Avatars used the Sayana System only. This is the direct result of their Earth-Centered quest for perfect.
The Zeitgeist demands a Calendar System that is in consonance with the Time-Spirit of this Age, and hence you see this debate has cropped up, a debate which did not exist (and could not have existed ) before.
We in ACC are committed to the realisation of Divine Life on Earth for which Sri Aurobindo and The Mother worked hard, and Thea has expressed clearly the actions of the Supermind deploying on this beautiful planet. Coming from this poise which lays emphasis on the Divinisation of the Earth it is only natural we should choose an Earth-Centric Calendar system which can accurately measure MOVEMENT and enable us to grow into the divine life in a non-speculative fashion. In other words, this issue of Calendar is initimately connected with the evolutionary goals of this species and is not a separate or disconnected issue.
Our choice of calendar is based on the Divine Truth and its Workings on this Planet and the Realisation of Sri Aurobindo’s goals, and not on whether it is Indian or foreign. It is not based on sentimentalism. It is a part of the harmony and the deployment of Supermind on Earth, Supermind brings forth its own language to describe Itself and help mankind SEE ITS unfolding and the Sayana Tropical Calendar is part and parcel of this Grand Apotheosis.
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harimalla wrote:
Dear Mr. Wilkinson, Shall we reframe our discussion again. I am surley with you all in your set goals in this forum. I want to reform the Hindu calendar in the Hindu way ..I want the ancient spirit is not lost in the process of reform.You are asking me to reform by throwing the baby witth the bath tub. I am saying let us not throw the baby away. So let us reflect the present position of equinoxes and solstices in our Hindu calendar but by the Hindu way.. Let the ancient characteristics of Hinduism being reflected in the nirayan calendar not be lost even after the reform in the sayan fashion. This is all I ask. Let there be a marriage between Shiva and Shakti. But let us not give up Shiva altogether in our attempt to worship Shakti. This is all I ask. Is this acceptable to you.and others? Thank you, Hari Malla Hari Malla
Hari Malla, by saying the above (bolded parts) you have shown yourself as coming from a cultural perspective and not from the perspective of Truth. We have to accept certain things because they are hindu or rather because you think they hindu. But the Vedic Verse (Rig Veda 1.164.48) “Twelve Spokes….They Shake not the Least” clearly point to a Sayana Zodiac and I think I will go with the Vedic Way rather than the Hindu Way. In fact Thea has stated that the Sayana System originated in India and later travelled to the West, which did an excellent job of preserving and nurturing it. Even if it was wholly western, I would think twice before rejecting it just because it is western.
Your second bolded statement shows your ignorance of Supermind, its purpose and mechanism of deployment on this planet. Supermind reconciles Being and Becoming and enables us to perceive their simultaenous action and harmonises the Static and the Dynamic, Matter and Spirit, and East and the West. This is visibly clearly from the Sri Aurobindo and The Mother working together to establish the Divine Life on Earth and hence your idea that we are giving up Shiva is ridiculous, rather we are following his instructions assiduously and working to fulfill his vision for Earth. And Shiva wished for the Sayana System.
Again being Earth-Centric does not mean we ignore Shiva for He is also present inside us, the seed-spirit who sustains us in the depth of our beings, burning inside the atom and in also inside the most inert matter. We focus on the Immanent Shiva (who includes the Transcendent) and this vision is possible because of the Goddess-Centric Poise ushered in by this New Age.
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harimalla wrote:
Dear Mr. Wilkinson, To reform the calendar as I have said above is to use the manawantar system. This is done by shifting one whole month at a time not by shifting one day at a time like in the gregorian calendar. In the Gregorian calendar the lunar dates are not attached to the solar dates. But in our system we attach the lunar dates too in our luni-solar system. Thus we have to shift the whole month in the sayan fashion, every time we reform, say in about 2150 years.. It is a quantized shift sytem.. Why do you want us to give up our traditionally accepted method of reform and do away with all nirayan characteristics? please remember Shiva has two wives. One is Ganga ( who gives us salvation, nirayan) and othe other is Parvati ( who takes care of our life, sayan). Parvati is mother Earth and Ganga is the circle of nakshyatras. Shiva, our Spirit, needs both- life and salvation. Hari Malla
Neither antiquity nor modernity can be the test of
truth or the test of usefulness. All the Rishis do not belong to
the past; the Avatars still come; revelation still continues.– Sri Aurobindo
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harimalla wrote:
Dear Mr. Wilkinson, To reform the calendar as I have said above is to use the manawantar system. This is done by shifting one whole month at a time not by shifting one day at a time like in the gregorian calendar. In the Gregorian calendar the lunar dates are not attached to the solar dates. But in our system we attach the lunar dates too in our luni-solar system. Thus we have to shift the whole month in the sayan fashion, every time we reform, say in about 2150 years.. It is a quantized shift sytem.. Why do you want us to give up our traditionally accepted method of reform and do away with all nirayan characteristics? please remember Shiva has two wives. One is Ganga ( who gives us salvation, nirayan) and othe other is Parvati ( who takes care of our life, sayan). Parvati is mother Earth and Ganga is the circle of nakshyatras. Shiva, our Spirit, needs both- life and salvation. Hari Malla
On the whole, your system of reform is typical of the mental species. As Sri Aurobindo states, the Mind divides, limits and see all things only in relation with others. And if there is a contradiction, you overcome it by bringing in one more factor. So when the faults of the Nirayana System is pointed out, you have to bring in the Nakshatras to fix it. And then as more errors are pointed out, you have to get in Brahma’s Solstices, Shiva’s Solstices and Vishnu’s Solstices. You seem comfortable now, but the very soon, one more flaw will be pointed out and then you will have to invent another Solstice to harmonise it. Since we have 330 million Vedic Gods, you will stand for long, but eventually, you will give way. This kind of patchwork reminds me of Ptolemy’s complicated spheres to explain the motion of the planets from a geocentric perspective, but when you accept the Sun (Supermind) as the centre, then things become simple and harmonious. Mind will only lead you to an infinite relativistic regress.
Supermind on the other hand enables us to perceive the Grand Workings of the Whole and the Integration there is SEEN without any Mental Patchwork. It is the Vedic Way which harmonises by intuitive understanding rather than Mental Work. True Integration is possible only in the Supermind. Integration can never be in the Mental Way.
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Fundamentally, Hari Malla, if you believe the Unmoving and Ultimate is superior, why do you waste your time with Calendar Reform, since it is all inferior and temporary? Why don’t you go to a cave – I heard Kanchenjunga is nearby – and spend your time in solitary bliss trying to reach the Ultimate instead of worrying about mundane inferior matters such as Calendar Reform?
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Dear Devinder,
If you want to know what Thea’s cosmology is, you have to read what is presented in this website; or else my books. I cannot give you a one-liner that says it all. At the most I can explain something not noted above: it is an APPLIED COSMOLOGY, to distinguish it from the scientific kind.
Having stated that, this question of ‘application’ is what makes it rather unique. Without application, there is no ‘Thea’s cosmology’. It is the application, or the Becoming that is the heart and soul of this new discipline. Finally, it is the harmonious resolution or reconciliation of Being and Becoming. They support each other. But the delight, the joy comes through Becoming. To follow that in life, on this planet, is the really unique to this New Way.
Thea
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Dear Hari Malla,
What makes it so difficult to discuss these matters of cosmology with you is that you don’t know what you don’t know. And perhaps worse, you clearly don’t want to know. You have your own home spun version of cosmology, your own language to express it and of course you make the rest up as you move along.
One of the mainstays of your belief is something you call the E-M barycenter which is a modern astronomical term that describes the non-rotating coordinate at the center of mass of two or more planetary bodies. Evidently you have seized upon this concept as an un-moving point that transcends the time created by the earth’s motions. What you may not understand is that since the distribution of Mass is not a constant value, the barycenter is not an unmoving point but wanders around constantly…so much for your un-moving point in Space.
Another fundamental error exposed in one of your recent comments was that Space is the container of Time. In reality it is just the opposite. Thea has written extensively about how three dimensions of Time give rise to the point of Space. She has illustrated this primordial truth with the three ‘gunas’ which possess a numerical equivalence to the numbers 9, 6, and 3. When this triadic seed of time, born out of contraction, crosses a certain threshold the direction shifts to expansion, giving rise to the Point of Space. In the Vedic myths, this is known as the birth of the One, the Immanent, ‘upholder’ of the worlds and ‘support’ of the universe. The One emerges across the threshold of Time as its fourth dimension. Thus the formula of Thea’s Cosmology is 9-6-3-0/1, a simple number sequence that describes the process by which solidified energy, form and matter, emerge from that zero womb to begin its orderly evolution in Space.
In his commentaries on the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Sri Aurobindo acknowledges this truth and discusses the occult imagery associated with Time and Space and the order of their powers:
‘ … The [image of the] horse is a physical figure representing like an algebraical symbol, an unknown quantity of force and speed. (Time is its breath, the year is its body, the seasons its limbs, the months and the fortnights its joints, the days and nights its feet.) From the imagery it is evident that this force, this speed, is something universal. Time in its period is the Self of the Horse Sacrificial, so not Matter but Time, is the body of this force of the material universe ... Space then, is the flesh constituting materially this body of Time which the sage attributes to his Horse of the worlds, by movement in Space its periods are shaped and determined. Hence the real power, the fundamental greatness of the Horse is not the material world, not the magnitudes of Space, but the magnitudes of Time … for Time is that mysterious condition of universal mind which alone makes the ordering of the universe in Space possible.’ Sri Aurobindo, The Upanishads; ‘The Great Aranyaka’, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, 1971
Since we are talking about Time as the ordering principle of the universe, it becomes the preeminent feature of Measure of that which Moves. If you and Devinder can wrap your minds around this, perhaps you will begin to understand the genius of Thea’s cosmology and its myriad Applications.
Robert
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Dear Devinder,
Please re-read Madame Thea’s first two posts in this forum, as well as the article ‘Key to the Map of the 12 Manifestations’ by Robert Wilkinson, under ‘Articles’ on the home page. The answer to your questions are there (as well as in the vast amount of material written by Thea and her students, available on this website, at http://www.aeongroup.com,http://www.patrizianorellibachelet.com, http://www.quantumyoga.com).
Jan
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Dear Mr. Wilkinsonji,
I have tried to read a little about the reviews on the books of Madame Theaand others. One place i have noted that Avatars and yugas come every about 6000 years to match with the full cycle of precession. i beg to amend this concept prevalent in the last century among certain gurus in India. It is my present view that the four last Avatars (of the ten) who come in the four yugas ( golden, silver, bronze and iron), are experienced at the four cadinal points of the sidereal year itself within the period of the same manawantar of about 2000 years. Then with the shift of a Manawantar after about 30 degrees of precession in about 2000 years, we find the four new cardinal points( sidereal solstices and equinoxes) where the four Avatars can occur at the four yugas…So the precessional cycle is really one kalpa and 27or 30 degree shift of sidereal solstices and equinoxes is one manaantar. The four yugas, according to my understanding, can occur at the four cardinal points even every year. I can explain further on this point if needed. I have previously written on this. I have indicated the positions of the last four Avatars at the four cardinal points which may designate the four yugas too.
Can you please clarify the concept of precession vis a vis the yugas further as accepted in your or madame Thea’s Cosmology? Thank you..
Hari Malla
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Madam Thea,
I have already gone through the articles. Jan talked about the factual support and I am seeking factual support from you.
On what basis, you have chosen cycle of 25920 years? Just 50 secs average that can’t even be guaranteed by modern science.
On what basis you are choosing three cycles spread to 12 manifestations?
What is the zero point as per you, I mean ayanamsa?
Why it is called ayanamsa and not vishuwamsa?
Please answer with factual support as advised by Jan.
regds
Devinder
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Dear Robert,
I am not in support for Sh Hari Malla here and we two are different. My ideas are already there in my book “The Unanswered” where I have argued each and everything.
I am interested in what makes your theory and if you are married to your concepts, our discussion would be of no use.
regds
Devinder
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harish wrote:
Fundamentally, Hari Malla, if you believe the Unmoving and Ultimate is superior, why do you waste your time with Calendar Reform, since it is all inferior and temporary? Why don’t you go to a cave – I heard Kanchenjunga is nearby – and spend your time in solitary bliss trying to reach the Ultimate instead of worrying about mundane inferior matters such as Calendar Reform?
Dear Harishji,
Since Time is the steppng stone to the ultimate, we have to get correct timing so we reach the ultimate easily and naturally. The mother introduces us to the father. So it is necesary to please the mother first before we ask her about the father. The utltimte does not come so easily without building the ladder to it..Theaji has properly called it as the spring board to the ultimate..
Hari Malla
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Dear Willkinsonji,
You said,
robertwilkinson wrote:
Dear Hari Malla, What makes it so difficult to discuss these matters of cosmology with you is that you don’t know what you don’t know. And perhaps worse, you clearly don’t want to know. You have your own home spun version of cosmology, your own language to express it and of course you make the rest up as you move along. One of the mainstays of your belief is something you call the E-M barycenter which is a modern astronomical term that describes the non-rotating coordinate at the center of mass of two or more planetary bodies. Evidently you have seized upon this concept as an un-moving point that transcends the time created by the earth’s motions. What you may not understand is that since the distribution of Mass is not a constant value, the barycenter is not an unmoving point but wanders around constantly…so much for your un-moving point in Space. Another fundamental error exposed in one of your recent comments was that Space is the container of Time.>Space is the container of time because Einstien says time is the fourth dimentsion of space. Hope you have heard of this. Human time is basically the earth and its motions llike the day, the month and the year..It is only a tiny speck in the universe of space although it may appear as very important to we earth dwelling creatures..
You said:
<In reality it is just the opposite. Thea has written extensively about how three dimensions of Time give rise to the point of Space. She has illustrated this primordial truth with the three ‘gunas’ which possess a numerical equivalence to the numbers 9, 6, and 3. When this triadic seed of time, born out of contraction, crosses a certain threshold the direction shifts to expansion, giving rise to the Point of Space. In the Vedic myths, this is known as the birth of the One, the Immanent, ‘upholder’ of the worlds and ‘support’ of the universe. The One emerges across the threshold of Time as its fourth dimension. Thus the formula of Thea’s Cosmology is 9-6-3-0/1, a simple number sequence that describes the process by which solidified energy, form and matter, emerge from that zero womb to begin its orderly evolution in Space. In his commentaries on the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Sri Aurobindo acknowledges this truth and discusses the occult imagery associated with Time and Space and the order of their powers: ‘ … >
The three dimension of Time is an awkward expression. The three gunas meet at one point which is called as Unexpressed Nature. YOu have used the term ‘contraction’ for this experience. It is the earth core experienced in the mind. What Madame Thea says above is true that as the fourth we experience space point which is the upholder or the support of the universe. This point is nothing but the E-M barycenter which you have found so dfficult to understand. .It is, as it were, the support of the universe or God himself. .Here you will note that we must go by steps to reach the ultimate point. From this ultimate point, space expands from the sun to the stars in stages with the progress of the Avatars starting with Rama, and proceeding through Krishna, Buddha and ending with Kalki in sequence. from the seventh to the tenth Avatars…
<The [image of the] horse is a physical figure representing like an algebraical symbol, an unknown quantity of force and speed. (Time is its breath, the year is its body, the seasons its limbs, the months and the fortnights its joints, the days and nights its feet.) From the imagery it is evident that this force, this speed, is something universal. Time in its period is the Self of the Horse Sacrificial, so not Matter but Time, is the body of this force of the material universe … Space then, is the flesh constituting materially this body of Time which the sage attributes to his Horse of the worlds, by movement in Space its periods are shaped and determined. Hence the real power, the fundamental greatness of the Horse is not the material world, not the magnitudes of Space, but the magnitudes of Time … for Time is that mysterious condition of universal mind which alone makes the ordering of the universe in Space possible.’ Sri Aurobindo, The Upanishads; ‘The Great Aranyaka’, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, 1971 Since we are talking about Time as the ordering principle of the universe, it becomes the preeminent feature of Measure of that which Moves.>
The horse traveling in space is ascension to heaven of stars. WE can all do it in imitation of the enlightened Buddha. This is the experience of the Buddha Avatar through the hair upon his forehead known as Urna kesh. . Thus he is called as the Chakravartin. But the trip ends at the space on top of his head, where the flame of Ushnisha is. ( Shasrar chakra)
Mohammed is also ssid to have travelled upon that horse named as’ Borak’ and taken a trip of heaven by Angel Gabriel.. Jesus is said to ascend to heaven in the end. This ascension to heaven is same as travelling upon the horse around the circle of space of stars only. This is actually the ‘Shakti’ in the form of Saraswati. This truly lis gyan yoga. But important to know is through these acts, Shakti gets absorved and thus leads us into the unmoving Space ( being the end of Shakti) as the fourth dimension of space and resulting into space time continuity. I agree with this.The end result is unmoving eternity of the unified field in sapce..
<If you and Devinder can wrap your minds around this, perhaps you will begin to understand the genius of Thea’s cosmology and its myriad Applications. Robert
Let me support you and say the great Shankaracharya has thus given equal importance to the 5 various ways we can reach the ulitmte Brahmah, by calling them as Panchayan or the five ways,. Thse are Ganesh, Bhaskar( sun) , Devi (earth), Vishnu and Maheshwar. We are allowed to keep at the center any of these five as the essential One. I have no problem. I expect the same from you too. But science has developed very well now and we should try to understand the ancient concepts in the scientific terms too in the modern age.
thank you,
Hari Malla
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Dear HArishji,
harish wrote:
harimalla wrote:
Dear Mr. Wilkinson, To reform the calendar as I have said above is to use the manawantar system. This is done by shifting one whole month at a time not by shifting one day at a time like in the gregorian calendar. In the Gregorian calendar the lunar dates are not attached to the solar dates. But in our system we attach the lunar dates too in our luni-solar system. Thus we have to shift the whole month in the sayan fashion, every time we reform, say in about 2150 years.. It is a quantized shift sytem.. Why do you want us to give up our traditionally accepted method of reform and do away with all nirayan characteristics? please remember Shiva has two wives. One is Ganga ( who gives us salvation, nirayan) and othe other is Parvati ( who takes care of our life, sayan). Parvati is mother Earth and Ganga is the circle of nakshyatras. Shiva, our Spirit, needs both- life and salvation. Hari Malla
On the whole, your system of reform is typical of the mental species. As Sri Aurobindo states, the Mind divides, limits and see all things only in relation with others. And if there is a contradiction, you overcome it by bringing in one more factor. So when the faults of the Nirayana System is pointed out, you have to bring in the Nakshatras to fix it. And then as more errors are pointed out, you have to get in Brahma’s Solstices, Shiva’s Solstices and Vishnu’s Solstices. You seem comfortable now, but the very soon, one more flaw will be pointed out and then you will have to invent another Solstice to harmonise it. Since we have 330 million Vedic Gods, you will stand for long, but eventually, you will give way. This kind of patchwork reminds me of Ptolemy’s complicated spheres to explain the motion of the planets from a geocentric perspective, but when you accept the Sun (Supermind) as the centre, then things become simple and harmonious. Mind will only lead you to an infinite relativistic regress. Supermind on the other hand enables us to perceive the Grand Workings of the Whole and the Integration there is SEEN without any Mental Patchwork. It is the Vedic Way which harmonises by intuitive understanding rather than Mental Work. True Integration is possible only in the Supermind. Integration can never be in the Mental Way.
>
Dear Harishji,
I agree, Supremind is true integration. but it cannot be expressed in words easily. Trinity God ( in the form of three) is not invented just for fun but for this purpose only. It is done to enclose the ulitmate truth through the three internal faculties within us. The super mind has to be reached through all the three faculties simultaneously namely the human senses, mind and the intellect to udnerstand it fully.Thus Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are born. When we deal from these three angles then we have surrounded the inexpressible truth from all sides and we succeed in pinpointing teh Supermind, which is illusive to the ordinary intellect. So please let you and Theaji both learn to look at a problem from these three angles and you will surely arrive at the truth of the Supermind. These three togetehr are above the mental patch work that you are thinking of. Just giving one word like the solar date is not enough. Thus you will recall that we have the sidereal solar date, the lunar date as well as the tropical dates. If Theaji says ‘solar date’ and she actually means the wester type of tropical date, it is surely lacking fullness by any standard. Our Vedic lookout is thorough and also all encmpassing.
Please note that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are not patchwork as you have termed it, but the three main angles of vision namely the solar, lunar and the tropical. Theaji by her western mentality is thinking of tropical date and using the word ‘solar’ in a loose way…When we say solar we mean the sidereal solar and not tropical..
Please note that in our calendar reform we must consider all the three and also coordinate them . This has been considered and proposed by the ancient people in the form of the manawantar system. This surely is the proper way since it coordinates all the three components of our calendar- the solar , lunar and the tropical..
I here, have a request to make.The sayan method of festival reform in 30 temples of Tamilnadu, as advertised by Wilkinsonji many years ago wasi n my view, good work too. But i am not hearing about it now a days. Can you please update me if they (30 tmeples) are still following it or not. If not then let us now ask them to redo it the coordinated way, in which, we retain the nirayan system too after reform of one month.. I am quite eager to know about this issue in the 30 temples in Tamil Nadu..
Thank you,
Hari Malla
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Dear Wilkinsonji,
Can I please know the status of the 30 temples of Tamilnadu. Are they still following the sayan calendar for celebrations of festivals or have they given up.? i was very happy to get that news some years back. If the temples have left the sayan system let us encourage them to again follow it but with a little change to follow the full one month shift.
thank you,
Har iMalla
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Dear Madame Theaji,
<thea wrote:
Krishnamurti once stated, ‘What can be measured is not truth.’ I have an aphorism for you all: ‘ONLY WHAT CAN BE MEASURED AND APPLIED IS REAL.’ Thea
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Thank you, madame, for the above quote of Krishna murthy was well as your aphorism to people like him.. As true to Vedanta which says knower and the known or Purush and Prakriti are not two but One, let us be tolerant to each other. Let us recognise each other’s view point and say we could belong to the same camp, since Vedanta says so..You will recall, as humans, we need both father and the mother. Somebody love their father more and others may love their mother more. This is natural. But we must recognise both the parents. So God and Nature are both our causes known in Sankhya darshan as Uapadan karan or Prakriti (material cause) and Nimitta karan (effiecient cause) or Purusha. But Vedanta darshan says “Abhinna Nimmitta Upaadan kaaran”. ( Sameness of the two cause material and efficient.). You have called it as Being and Becoming. You surely will agree that ultimately they are One.
It may be worthwhile for me to quote Shankaracharya. He says ‘The rope when seen in the dark becomes the serpent. But they are not two but one and the same thing.’
So if you do not mind let me draw this example to the sayan nirayan controvery in calendar reform too. Purush is nirayan and thus unmoving, whereas Prakriti is sayan and moving. So let us tolerate both. But for them to be freindly, the difference should not be more than 15 degrees. This limit of 15 degrees is set by the lunar fluctuation in every three years. More difference than 15 degees or days becomes intolerable to our system but within 15 degrees or days, it is allowable. In course of time if it exceeds 15 degrees or days then we have to shift one whole month to bring it back to the allowable limit. This quantized shift of one whole month of nirayan VE or solstice is called as one Manawantar. Let me propose and ask you to encourage the 30 temples in Tamil nadu also to shift one month of their festivals. This surely was a grand work that you all have done at the Aeon Center of Cosmology..My prayers for your success.
Let us also not hesitate to ask the Christians and the Moslems to reform their respective calendars for th sake of world peace.. The Christians seem to be supporting Prakriti by takng only the tropical calendar and the Islamic Hijri calendar seem to be supporting only the lunar calendar forgetting the seasons or Prakriti altogether. Let us also make good efforts to create the New world order by having their misunderstandings clarified and let them live in harmony after reforming their respective calendars to match with each other.. I am asking you madame, to support this international reform too, because you have the power to do so being the biggest worshipper of the Divine Shakti..I am hapy to have met you in this forum.
Thank you,
Hari Malla
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Dear Jan, Richard and Madam Thea,
Thanks for the document Richard. I have gone through it and here are my comments:
The manifestations and starting date as suggested lack the FACTUAL support that Jan was mentioning.
When it comes to FACTUAL support, there is no room for intuition, divine coming or anything like this. I respect spirituality and all these divine comings, but when it comes to FACUTAL, we can’t accept it. For your kind info, we have so many saints, godmen in India and abroad that all of them claim their own dates, ages and theories as divine coming BUT none of them can be categorized as FACTUAL.
First of all, rigveda 1.154 Sanskrit verse do not mention anything like Lion, Bull and the translation itself seems out of divine coming.
Secondly, Rigveda 1.164.48 and similar quote from AV reflects Sun’s revolution of 360 spokes that can’t be taken as tropical sure short. Sun revolution as a standalone is not tropical in nature.
Thirdly, as written earlier, cycle of 25920 years is also on assumptions and hence can’t be taken guaranteed.
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Hari Malla said:
Please note that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are not patchwork as you have termed it, but the three main angles of vision namely the solar, lunar and the tropical.
The problem with you Hari Malla is that you have your own Cosmology and Terminology to explain it, and I suggest you start your own website with your Cosmology, to explain it to the outside world.
And the problem with it is that there is an unnecessary multiplicaton of entities. When you can simply harmonise everything by accepting the tropical Zodiac, why do you want to complicate things? You bring in science into your cosmology, but ignore the fact that scientists prefer the simplest explanation (the law of parsimony) to the complicated one.
Also, you keep mentioning that the Tropical Zodiac is Western, clearly revealing your prejudices (something scientists should not have), but the Rig Veda Verse 1.164.48 clearly proves that the Tropical Zodiac is Indian and not foreign.
Again, what do you make of Al-Beruni’s comment after reading Varahamihira’s Brihat Samhita, “The solstice has kept its place, but the constellations have migrated, just the very opposite of what Varaha has fancied” – thus pointing to the stars/constellations in the heavens ? Thus, the Sidereal Zodiac is definitely also Western, inasmuch the MiddleEasterners are our Westerners!
Clearly what Varaha (and his ancestors) fancied has to be the Tropical Zodiac – unless of course, he was using Malla’s Cosmology!
Tropical Zodiac is indigenous, it is Sidereal that is Western and Foreign!
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devinder wrote:
Dear Jan, Richard and Madam Thea, Thanks for the document Richard. I have gone through it and here are my comments: The manifestations and starting date as suggested lack the FACTUAL support that Jan was mentioning. When it comes to FACTUAL support, there is no room for intuition, divine coming or anything like this. I respect spirituality and all these divine comings, but when it comes to FACUTAL, we can’t accept it. For your kind info, we have so many saints, godmen in India and abroad that all of them claim their own dates, ages and theories as divine coming BUT none of them can be categorized as FACTUAL. First of all, rigveda 1.154 Sanskrit verse do not mention anything like Lion, Bull and the translation itself seems out of divine coming. Secondly, Rigveda 1.164.48 and similar quote from AV reflects Sun’s revolution of 360 spokes that can’t be taken as tropical sure short. Sun revolution as a standalone is not tropical in nature. Thirdly, as written earlier, cycle of 25920 years is also on assumptions and hence can’t be taken guaranteed.
The fact that the circle is divided into 12 spokes (30 deg each) and 360 pegs (days) clearly proves that the Rishis divided the heavens into 12 equal parts of 30 degrees each. If they had followed the Sidereal System, this would not be possible, as some constellations are larger than 30 degrees and some smaller (also each dependent on how one superimposes the image of the animals on the constellations). The division into 12 equal spokes (12 X 30 = 360) giving rise to 360 days is clear indication of the Tropical Zodiac.
The next evidence is the statement “They Shake not in the Least”. Only the Tropical Zodiac is fixed, and since this can only refer to the Tropical Zodiac.
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devinder wrote:
Dear Jan, Richard and Madam Thea, Thanks for the document Richard. I have gone through it and here are my comments: The manifestations and starting date as suggested lack the FACTUAL support that Jan was mentioning. When it comes to FACTUAL support, there is no room for intuition, divine coming or anything like this. I respect spirituality and all these divine comings, but when it comes to FACUTAL, we can’t accept it. For your kind info, we have so many saints, godmen in India and abroad that all of them claim their own dates, ages and theories as divine coming BUT none of them can be categorized as FACTUAL. First of all, rigveda 1.154 Sanskrit verse do not mention anything like Lion, Bull and the translation itself seems out of divine coming. Secondly, Rigveda 1.164.48 and similar quote from AV reflects Sun’s revolution of 360 spokes that can’t be taken as tropical sure short. Sun revolution as a standalone is not tropical in nature. Thirdly, as written earlier, cycle of 25920 years is also on assumptions and hence can’t be taken guaranteed.
Except for the controversy over the translation of mriga as Lion, by Sri Aurobindo, I think there is perfect agreement on the translation of the above-mentioned verses amongst all the Vedic Scholars
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Dear Harish,
Hope you would discuss with an open mind rather than biased by divine comings like Thea’s cosmology or Malla’s cosmology. This is how I started this discussion. Cosmology is cosmology, we can understand it right or wrong but it is not an individual affair.
1. ) In your writing to Mr. Malla, you have indicated Varahmihira quote. You must know that Varahmihira indicated the division of zodiac as 0 Aries to Ashwini and so on. So, moment he writes that earlier solstice took place in so and so nakshatra and now it is happening in Cancer/ Capricorn itself means it was not expected always.
“Why did not he write that earlier also solstice took place in Cancer/ Capricorn?”.
2.) You have taken tropical zodiac as fixed in regard to rigveda 1.164.48. My dear friend, the whole world knows that tropical zodiac is formed referred to moving VE and hence how it is fixed? 12 spokes are defined equal in nirayana zodiac too and are not categorized according to the modern constellation boundaries that you are basing your argument on. And hence your argument is hollow. Sun revolution as standalone is not tropical in nature.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
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devinder wrote:
My dear friend, the whole world knows that tropical zodiac is formed referred to moving VE and hence how it is fixed? 12 spokes are defined equal in nirayana zodiac too and are not categorized according to the modern constellation boundaries that you are basing your argument on. And hence your argument is hollow. Sun revolution as standalone is not tropical in nature.
The solstices and equinoxes are “fixed” because they form absolute, unchanging points of reference. The equinox is always defined by a day and night of equal length, and this occurs exactly twice per year. There are always exactly two equinoxes per year—and two solstices, with equally precise and unambiguous defining moments.
This wheel (of the tropical zodiac) can be defined without making any reference to the stars, or even to the length of the year. It arises purely out of the relationship between the Earth and the Sun. Also note that the same points can be applied to defining the Day (dawn, midday, dusk, midnight). The tropical zodiac (and the Day) are thus “fixed” because anchored to these absolute, unchanging points of reference, which stand like pillars, firmly rooted in the Earth. In fact if you study Thea’s cosmology you will see that this superimposition of the Day and the Year is a defining feature of the Vedic mythos (especially with regards to the attainment of victory in the tenth month).
There are no solstices and equinoxes in the sidereal “zodiac”, thus no fixed points of reference, no pillars, and no meaningful way to juxtapose the Day and the Year. The entire universe is constantly “churning” (there are no “fixed stars”). Whatever wheel you define will be adrift in the void, like a rudderless ship on the ocean, and any attempt you make to “fix” it will be completely arbitrary. I believe the Rishis knew this very well.
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I’ve been following this important ACC discussion this past week, mulling over the posts, trying to understand, integrate and such. I’d like to thank all who are participating in this forum topic, which is very revealing and educational.
Hari Malla your comments have perplexed me quite a bit. I feel like I enter a maze when I read your posts. You speak of yoga and harmonies and marriage between Shiva-Shakti, Earth-Moon and such but the tone that comes through is duality, not unity. I get the impression from your ideas about the EM barycenter of the Earth-Moon that you have yet to understand/comprehend the Vedic realization of the One, or the Divine Flame Agni at the heart or core of each Individual Being. Hence for you, it seems entirely plausible that the real center which creates our consciousness is located at the barycenter created by the dance between the Earth and the Moon which itself moves about as Robert wrote, because ‘the distribution of Mass is not a constant value’. It also needs to be noted that ‘The point[barycentre] is also continually moving longitudinally within the Earth as the Earth performs its daily axial rotation and the Moon performs its regular 360 degree observed orbit around the Earth.’
Essentially the barycenter is a point of BALANCE between two or more objects.
The problem when trying to make this balance point the CENTER of consciousness is that it is, in essence EMPTY. It is not the Hiraṇyagarbha (‘golden womb’ or ‘golden egg’) of our existence. This point did not create the Earth and it did not create the Moon. It is not in any way a point of origin or source or creation. It is a gravitational phenomenon resulting from the Earth and Moon’s independent yet intertwined existence. To equate this balance point with the Purusha and hence with Agni and the center of the Vedic Sacrifice (i.e. Year) is a serious error in judgement. It is preposterous from the point of Higher Knowledge. The barycenter of two or more Individual beings (whoever or where ever they may be) does not constitute the immobile center/divine flame from which order arises. You have lost the plot on this one.
The BALANCE point of the barycenter is akin in the Zodiac to the Libra cardinal point (whose symbol is a balancing scale). Students of the Supramental Cosmology will be able to appreciate your comments in light of this stage of the zodiac in which the Balance and Harmony which is adhered to is not yet the True Thing. It is base on the Void (which infers a void of knowledge) where there is a shattering of consciousness and the Mind begins to go increasingly out from the center towards the external surround into increasingly fragmented and fragmenting patterns and manifestations of thought (the plight of our modern world). From this Void in consciousness, words begin to lose their meaning, because the real center of the manifestation (creation) is lost and people begin to make up their own meaning and interpretations (as if Truth was relative … not based on anything stable/concrete as the Vedic Rishi’s conveyed in the concept of Skambha). Hence in our Modern age, one can speak of high Vedic concepts or symbols and have no real connection to the POINT or the Oneness from which these Vedic concepts and symbols arise.
This is what you seem to be doing Hari Malla. Trying to find a balance and a harmony between different systems of science, religion and yoga, but this approach is doomed to failure. It is off-center and ‘half-baked’ in terms of the evolution of consciousness and in terms of all that remains to be seen and known. All your imaginative slant does is add another interminable maze to the confusion the world population is already thoroughly mired in.
The work of Thea and Aeon Centre of Cosmology is intended to draw people out of such mazes. Yourself included if willing. You write that Thea is ‘lost in the maze of Time’ but you would do well to reconsider who is lost. There is the possibility of revelation at hand, wherein the hopelessly hollow judgements an opinions of the Egoic Mind, give way to higher knowledge (Sagittarius) pointing the way to the birth of the True Centre in our consciousness (Capricorn).
Anyone who has read and truly comprehended Thea’s books The Gnostic Circle and The Magical Carousel knows that your opinion regarding Thea being lost in Time is the very opposite of the truth. She comprehends the Time-Spirit and its past, present and future movements better than anyone else alive and has demonstrated how it informs evolution and manifestation. Any one who has read and truly comprehended her books can clearly see where your consciousness has become stuck or calcified in Time, like an artefact from the past. Your position can be easily plotted out (found or put in its place) on the map of Time. You live in the present with us, but your consciousness is ‘barycentered’ somewhere the past … lagging behind the present moment in time. You do not take into account at all the supramental and all-harmonizing knowledge that has been introduced by Sri Aurobindo, the Mother and Thea since the beginning of the 20th century. They have brought forth a new manifestation of knowledge, knowledge necessary for our new age of Unity. There is a lot new to be learned Hari Malla, and you seem to be spending your time and energies standing as a guard or custodian of the past, intent on maintaining hollow ideas of harmonies, balance points, marriages, yogas, symbols, deities as well as of the zodiac, rather than using your time and energies to drop deeper into the common Point of our existence … into Agni’s seat wherein all Time and Space is contained and born.
Once one approaches this seat of Gnosis, it becomes clear that Agni’s 12 month Earthlyjourney or ‘sacrifice’ cannot be a measure of the surrounding Space or Sky (constellations). The 12 month measure of Agni’s extension in Time and Space functions as the measure of the Purusha, the Cosmic Self, but this measure (as Agni himself) is self-born, self-contained, it is not established outside the Earth or outside the Individual.
In addition to being ‘self-born’, Agni is said to be born of two sticks (Aranis), typically thought of as Earth and Heaven. It seems to me that these sticks are symbolic of not only Earth and Heaven, but of the two axes from which Agni and the Vedic Sacrifice is born, i.e. the two axes of the Solstices and the Equinoxes. The Earth’s symbol is a Cardinal Cross within a circle. Are we to believe that these two axes (sticks) of the Earth have nothing to do with Agni’s sacrificial year (i.e. the Zodiac)?
It just seems so very upside-down and backwards to continue to insist that the Vedic Year/Zodiac is disconnected from the Earth’s own experience, from her own Geometries of Time as established by her very real axes (the Cardinal Cross) in Time and Space and as experienced by the Earth and her inhabitants. To assert that the Zodiac is about the movements of the constellations or the cosmic surround rather than the movements of LIFE/CONSCIOUSNESS on Earth, is an ongoing folly. This folly has been exposed via the yoga and writings of Thea and there is no going back, no crawling back into a time where this folly has not been thoroughly exposed. The cat is out of the bag.
The Zodiac is an extension of Agni, of the One Self in all selves. It is established from the INSIDE, from the Centre of Being, extending out, not the other way around, not established externally. However Nirayani astrologers argue the point, it will not change the indwelling essence and structure of the Zodiac which is the measure or structure of Agni’s (our soul’s) journey in Time and Space. The Vedic Year and the Earth’s Tropical Year are one in the same.
The Earth Herself is an exquisite womb of harmonies because Agni or the Divine Flame (the Immanent ‘Son’ of the Sun and of the Transcendent Divine) lies hidden in her Core. It is time for the world to begin to acknowledge and come to terms with this divine status and function of Mother Earth and a first step is to acknowledge and come to terms with the true measure of the Zodiac … the Earth’s measure. It’s quite a collosal step considering not only how many proceed to deny and trash Her Being in whatever subtle or not so subtle ways, but also considering how many are either attached to the Zodiac as being either something that Transcends the Earth’s own field of being or something that is an ignorant superstition that has nothing to do with anything at all important.
Simply put, the Zodiac is Immanent within the Earth and hence Immanent within each Individual on it. It is a measure that is in us, a measure that is observed by the soul, even if not observed by the mind. I hope this becomes more and more obvious to readers.
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arinaya wrote:
devinder wrote:
My dear friend, the whole world knows that tropical zodiac is formed referred to moving VE and hence how it is fixed? 12 spokes are defined equal in nirayana zodiac too and are not categorized according to the modern constellation boundaries that you are basing your argument on. And hence your argument is hollow. Sun revolution as standalone is not tropical in nature.
The solstices and equinoxes are “fixed” because they form absolute, unchanging points of reference. The equinox is always defined by a day and night of equal length, and this occurs exactly twice per year. There are always exactly two equinoxes per year—and two solstices, with equally precise and unambiguous defining moments. This wheel (of the tropical zodiac) can be defined without making any reference to the stars, or even to the length of the year. It arises purely out of the relationship between the Earth and the Sun. Also note that the same points can be applied to defining the Day (dawn, midday, dusk, midnight). The tropical zodiac (and the Day) are thus “fixed” because anchored to these absolute, unchanging points of reference, which stand like pillars, firmly rooted in the Earth. In fact if you study Thea’s cosmology you will see that this superimposition of the Day and the Year is a defining feature of the Vedic mythos (especially with regards to the attainment of victory in the tenth month). There are no solstices and equinoxes in the sidereal “zodiac”, thus no fixed points of reference, no pillars, and no meaningful way to juxtapose the Day and the Year. The entire universe is constantly “churning” (there are no “fixed stars”). Whatever wheel you define will be adrift in the void, like a rudderless ship on the ocean, and any attempt you make to “fix” it will be completely arbitrary. I believe the Rishis knew this very well.
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Dear Mr.Arinaya,
How do we know that there is precession.of the equinoxes? Is it not with reference to the star background.? Agreed that there is no solstices and equinoxes in the sidereal zodiacs. Netherless is it not, on the background of fixed stars, that we see the motion of solstices and equinoxes of the year? If not this , then what is the definition of precession itself, unless we defined its motion on the back ground of stars? So from thisn do we not see, the stars are much more fixed than the solstices and the equinoxes. I am saying more fixed sicne you brought the whirling of our galaxy also into picture..
May i request you to be more practical and find, how as humans, we or our human history, can ever experience the whirling of the galaxy, since our life is barely one hundred years.The galaxy takes about 23 crore years to make one whirl..Can we observe or experience that motion since it takes 64 lakh years only to move over one degree of that whirl. So kindly be more practical since we are talking of human experinces in this cosmoloy for spiritual upliftment of humanity..On this basis one whole precessional cycle of 26,000 years (when the solstices and equinoxes move over 360 degrees of star circle) experiences only 0.004 degrees of the whirl. So friend can we not take for all practical purposes of human history , the stars of the zodiac circle as fully fixed and the solstices and the equinoxes as moving? The solstices and equnioxes move over 360 degrees of the zodiac circle when the zodiac circle moves over 0.004 degrees of the galactic whirl. How can we take the solstices as fixed and the stars as moving? Let us have some common sense.
Thank you,
Hari Malla
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Dear Arinaya,
You said “The solstices and equinoxes are “fixed” because they form absolute, unchanging points of reference. The equinox is always defined by a day and night of equal length, and this occurs exactly twice per year. There are always exactly two equinoxes per year—and two solstices, with equally precise and unambiguous defining moments.”
My reply:
When we observe, these are the cardinal points and have been very well specified in all ancient texts. Our ancients were no fools, they knew tropical too and have mentioned about them. I wrote “Sun revolution as standalone is not tropical in nature.” Focus on the word “standalone” in my statement and there lies the answer. Equinoxes are moving on this revolution and hence we call it precession of equinoxes. And since reference is getting changed in this tropical phenomenon, it is called “moving zodiac.” It is as simple as that.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
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harimalla wrote:
Dear Mr.Arinaya, How do we know that there is precession.of the equinoxes? Is it not with reference to the star background.? Agreed that there is no solstices and equinoxes in the sidereal zodiacs. Netherless is it not, on the background of fixed stars, that we see the motion of solstices and equinoxes of the year? If not this , then what is the definition of precession itself, unless we defined its motion on the back ground of stars? So from thisn do we not see, the stars are much more fixed than the solstices and the equinoxes. I am saying more fixed sicne you brought the whirling of our galaxy also into picture.. May i request you to be more practical and find, how as humans, we or our human history, can ever experience the whirling of the galaxy, since our life is barely one hundred years.The galaxy takes about 23 crore years to make one whirl..Can we observe or experience that motion since it takes 64 lakh years only to move over one degree of that whirl. So kindly be more practical since we are talking of human experinces in this cosmoloy for spiritual upliftment of humanity..On this basis one whole precessional cycle of 26,000 years (when the solstices and equinoxes move over 360 degrees of star circle) experiences only 0.004 degrees of the whirl. So friend can we not take for all practical purposes of human history , the stars of the zodiac circle as fully fixed and the solstices and the equinoxes as moving? The solstices and equnioxes move over 360 degrees of the zodiac circle when the zodiac circle moves over 0.004 degrees of the galactic whirl. How can we take the solstices as fixed and the stars as moving? Let us have some common sense. Thank you, Hari Malla
I understand your line of reasoning, but you have conveniently skipped over an essential point: the solstices and equinoxes form an absolute frame of reference (the cardinal cross): they do not move even 0.004 degrees per precessional cycle: they do not move at all, they “shake not in the least”. With the Earth as our footing and the tropical zodiac as our frame of reference, it is the stars that precess. Vedic cosmology is geocentric. Nirayana system came later.
I will in turn implore you to be more “practical”: since very few humans live 26,000 years, but we all share the experience of the Day and the Year, why not adopt a frame of reference that we can all relate to? This appears to be what the Vedic Rishis did, and was only undermined in post-Vedic India, some 1000-1500 years ago, with the introduction of the Nirayana system.
We do not need to bring the whirling of the galaxy into the picture to appreciate that the tropical zodiac is more applicable to human life, and forms a frame of reference that we can all agree on.
The psychological equivalence of the Dawn and the Vernal Equinox is deeply related to the “one wheel” of the Vedic verse. How do you propose to uphold that equivalence within an arbitrary “circle of the stars”? Where, at what fixed point within the Nirayana circle, are the day and night of equal length? As you know, there is no such point. For this simple reason, we can reject the Nirayana system—not because it is wrong or because it was invented relatively recently, but because it fails to provide a “practical” frame of reference for the unfolding of a higher vision of Time. All it can do is lead us away from the Earth, to the formless absolute (what you call the Father). This is not the goal of the Vedic yajna, nor of an integral yoga or an integral cosmology. At best it is an intellectual pasttime, and at worst it is a distortion of the spiritual path and one of the deep causes of the decrepitude of modern India.
With love, Arinaya
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5arinaya wrote:
harimalla wrote:
Dear Mr.Arinaya, How do we know that there is precession.of the equinoxes? Is it not with reference to the star background.? Agreed that there is no solstices and equinoxes in the sidereal zodiacs. Netherless is it not, on the background of fixed stars, that we see the motion of solstices and equinoxes of the year? If not this , then what is the definition of precession itself, unless we defined its motion on the back ground of stars? So from thisn do we not see, the stars are much more fixed than the solstices and the equinoxes. I am saying more fixed sicne you brought the whirling of our galaxy also into picture.. May i request you to be more practical and find, how as humans, we or our human history, can ever experience the whirling of the galaxy, since our life is barely one hundred years.The galaxy takes about 23 crore years to make one whirl..Can we observe or experience that motion since it takes 64 lakh years only to move over one degree of that whirl. So kindly be more practical since we are talking of human experinces in this cosmoloy for spiritual upliftment of humanity..On this basis one whole precessional cycle of 26,000 years (when the solstices and equinoxes move over 360 degrees of star circle) experiences only 0.004 degrees of the whirl. So friend can we not take for all practical purposes of human history , the stars of the zodiac circle as fully fixed and the solstices and the equinoxes as moving? The solstices and equnioxes move over 360 degrees of the zodiac circle when the zodiac circle moves over 0.004 degrees of the galactic whirl. How can we take the solstices as fixed and the stars as moving? Let us have some common sense. Thank you, Hari Malla
I understand your line of reasoning, but you have conveniently skipped over an essential point: the solstices and equinoxes form an absolute frame of reference (the cardinal cross): they do not move even 0.004 degrees per precessional cycle: they do not move at all, they “shake not in the least”. With the Earth as our footing and the tropical zodiac as our frame of reference, it is the stars that precess. Vedic cosmology is geocentric. Nirayana system came later. I will in turn implore you to be more “practical”: since very few humans live 26,000 years, but we all share the experience of the Day and the Year, why not adopt a frame of reference that we can all relate to? This appears to be what the Vedic Rishis did, and was only undermined in post-Vedic India, some 1000-1500 years ago, with the introduction of the Nirayana system. We do not need to bring the whirling of the galaxy into the picture to appreciate that the tropical zodiac is more applicable to human life, and forms a frame of reference that we can all agree on. The psychological equivalence of the Dawn and the Vernal Equinox is deeply related to the “one wheel” of the Vedic verse. How do you propose to uphold that equivalence within an arbitrary “circle of the stars”? Where, at what fixed point within the Nirayana circle, are the day and night of equal length? As you know, there is no such point. For this simple reason, we can reject the Nirayana system—not because it is wrong or because it was invented relatively recently, but because it fails to provide a “practical” frame of reference for the unfolding of a higher vision of Time. All it can do is lead us away from the Earth, to the formless absolute (what you call the Father). This is not the goal of the Vedic yajna, nor of an integral yoga or an integral cosmology. At best it is an intellectual pasttime, and at worst it is a distortion of the spiritual path and one of the deep causes of the decrepitude of modern India. With love, Arinaya
Dear Arinayaji,
Please understand that the Rishis are saying “they shake not” for the steller world of sun and the stars and not to the earth’s solstices and equinoxes. The Vedas says “Give up the world for the sake of Atma.” Here. the ‘world’ means the earth. Atma means the world of the unmoving Sun and the stars. Integral yoga means nothing but this only. We calculate Yoga in our Panchanga by adding the speed of the sun to the speed of the stars ( Nakshyatra). This is the practical mathematics of Intergral yoga. The Integration means the intergration of the day caused by the sun and the night of the stars. Can you please integrate the day to the night in this fashion? The day you can do that you have achieved the goal of Intergral yoga. Be sure of that. This means you should visualize the sun and the stars simultaneously, situated in one space of the universe..Then you have achieved the goal of Integral Yoga.
Karma yoga is represented by the story of Rama, the seventh Avatar and experienced at the winter solstice. Bhaktiyoga by the story of Krishna of eighth incarnationan experienced at the spring equinox.. Gyana yoga by the story of Buddha, the ninth incarnation, experienced at the summer solstice. Intergral yoga is the integration of these three types of yogas and is traditionally called as Raja yoga and represented by the story of Kalki avatar, the tenth incarnation of God, who brings the Staya yuga or the Golden age….It is experienced at the Autumn equinox. These four Avatars moving in sequence as Satya yuga, treta yuga, dwapar yuga and kali yuga revolves around the sun at the four cardinal points and this dynamic motion is represented by the Swastika symbol. It is achieved in one person’s life time. This is also indicated by the story of Rohita, the son of Harish chandara.
Are these facts palatable to you? Please do not say “the stars whirl but the earth’s solstices and equinoxes are fixed.” You are interpreting things upside down from against the reality as accepted by science and also common sense…Thank you,
Hari Malla
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The question has come up on this forum – What is Thea’s cosmolog?
A year ago, Thea wrote a series of articles, titled The Cosmological Perspective and in the first piece she says: “There is an underlying premise or backdrop for events transpiring on Earth, which, though ignored, is on the order of a cosmological constant that serves not only as pace setter, but also provides a key to a deeper comprehension of these events. Without this constant a thorough comprehension of the causes of certain happenings is lacking. Foremost is the fact that this backdrop is the elemet that integrates perception…. we participate in a evolutionary process the beginning and end of which we are ignorant.’
She goes to add: ‘That whole is pre-existent. It is a pattern formed by the elements that constitute our solar system with its ecliptic divided into 12 zodiaal signs/months spread across our 365 days and populated by a family of 9 planets that together provide the ‘pulse’of the Earth, of nations, of individuals…’
Thea applies her cosmology in this series of writing to help us understand the huge catastrophe of World Wars 1 and 2. She helps us to make sense of the whole thing. This is what a good cosmology does. We live on Earth, the transformation of mental man to supramental man takes place on this planet – a calendar which reflects this wholeness and this purpose isan essential part of the cosmology.
I cannot see that in any of what has been discussed by Hari Malla and his group – for me this is a serious limitation. How does he apply his calendar to the purpose of life here on earth? From what I have read so far, Hari Malla aims to transcend Earth – so why is he so concerned about an earth-bound calendar? Robert, you have already made this point… but it does not get answered..
Also, I hope Hari and group are OK – as their country recovers from the tremendous shocks of the Earthquake last week…my best wishes to all, patricia
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Dear Arinaya,
Your reply to Mr. Malla is biased with one observation i.e. tropical. You all seem knowing astronomy and texts, which is good but remain biased otherwise. When we say Sun revolution, that itself is geocentric world. And Sun revolution is tropical when it comes to equinoxes/ solstices but as standalone is not tropical, even in geocentric world.
Why do you have doubt on this?
regds
Devinder
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There is an important part of this discussion that is being overlooked. It forms the heart and soul of my work; it is the basis of Myth across the world, and more particularly the Vedic Myth. It holds the key to the Dasavataras as indicated in the verses of the Rig Veda discussed above. Those very verses provide the exact key to the time of each appearance; moreover, we have the Epics to support the knowledge. They describe the contribution of each of the Ten: each has a specific purpose, a particular task to complete, something essential to introduce into the evolutionary matrix. None of our friends who have contributed to this interesting discussion are bothered about all this. In my view it is all that matters, or that should matter for Hindus because the Vishnu Line of 10 is the very backbone of the Sanatana Dharma – that is, the Line of 10 is its eternal Axis.
When mention of the 12 spokes occurs, it is not a vague meaningless void. Those 12 contain Knowledge – without which we would meander around aimlessly like seeking stability in the constellations where none can be found. But this is precisely what the Nirayana astrologers and punidts refuse to accept. I have been accused of being anti-Hindu because I stress the knowledge of the 12 zodiacal signs used across the world. They were used in India for a very long time, but now the new system has eliminated those 12 in favour of the 12 projections of the Nahshatras in the constellations (which makes not sense at all, as one of you has pointed out).
I have to provide a factual example for Devinder – though I really cannot understand what kind of ‘facts’ he means. For me, the language of the soul – myth – is factual – but only when Time is incorporated to make sense of these celestial movements. This is why a calendar is so important. One carries the entire population into the correct cosmis harmonies – what is lacking now; and this is celebrated as India’s grand diversity! We realise how lost this Knowledge of the zodiac is when we realise that the verses to Vishnu Trivikrama are misinterpreted entirely by one and all, except Sri Aurobindo. I saw the relationship to the Line of 10 in those verses only because I had Sri Aurobi ndo’s translation before me wherin he capitalised those three, Lion, Bull, Friend. I instantly understood what he was doing: these are the three zodiacal sings, Leo, Taurus and Aquarius (Friend-Mitra). Since I already had the correct key to the passage of the Ages, the Map of the 12 Manifestations, it was no stretch to know the time of their appearances, with relation to the 9th in this Age. It also finalised the understanding that the Buddha could not in any way be the 9th; not only because his birth was 2500 years too early – i.e. not in Vishnu’s Age of Preservation (zodiacal fixed signs) – but also because his coming did the reverse than what is expected of the 9th as part of the evolutionary tasks of all 10. So, the symbols and hieroglyphs are essential IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE CONTENT. Here is the factual proof, though Devider will not see this aas fact precisely because he does not appreciate the eternal value of the signs and symbols, which the Vedic Rishis did. And of course Harimalla and Devider will argue that in no way can thoe Vedic verses refer to the Vishnu avatars since that ‘myth’ comes from the Puranic Age, much later!!!!
Here is a central piece of my cosmology – actually my geo-cosmology: these are facts and they are based on the ONE CIRCLE of the Vedic verses. The meaning is that it is always that one circle of 12 signs that can be a year, of the 25920 years and many more. That one circle is the key. The 10th of the 12 is known throughout the world as India’s ruling astrological sign. This is its hieroglyphic symbol perfectly superimposed on Akhand Bharat.
I must close here and have someone insert the symbol map: I’m sorry folks, I could not complete this message because this system wants things VERY complicated. I can’t even copy and paste to save it somewhere else while all this is sorted out. Bear with me, there is more coming.
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I need to conclude what I started above, unfortunately without the graphics.
The point that needs to be made is that there is always only One Circle. That is the Constant, and it is the circle of 12 with their zodiacal signs and symbols. Why? Because that is where one finds VEDA – the Knowledge content. Otherwise it is a meaningless wheel that makes no sense. This is what we have today with astronomy taking over astrology. No sense, just a meaningless exercise that cannot be APPLIED.
To conclude on that One Circle of the RV verses, there is also specific mention of those 3 hubs. If you see my Map of 12 there are three hubs, along with all the rest.
Clearly this Map was known to the Rishis. It would appear that I am simply re-establishing a very ancient knowledge. And please note that I discover this Map well before reading these verses.
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Madam Thea,
I can understand all your emotions that are natural when your heart and soul is into something. All I wrote in my last post is that you need to either do it independent of vedas or else understand the vedas and then realign it. There is no factual support in it, believe me.
In fact, if you realign, it lacks on the following fronts (and I am ready for an unbiased debate with anyone but one shall not say “This is X because I am saying this is X”… My arguments shall be purely based on logics and academics):
1. Rigveda 1.154 does not have any Sanskrit word that can be translated as lion, bull or Friend. If one thinks so, please present the verse that spells out one of these words. Verses here are representing three steps that are related to the universe.
2. Vedas are centered on nakshatras. And you need to first understand and define nakshatra, if you really want to realign something.
3. You can not use modern constellation boundaries and moden assumed precession cycle of 25920 years,,,, and at same time speak of vedas in same breath. If you speak of the same, you need to present verses from veda that say precession cycle is 25920 years.
4. Tropical has its importance in ancient Indian texts and we need both. We might need improvements but we can’t ride any theory referring it to ancient texts without specifying the textual facts, understanding those facts and then aligning those facts with modern knowledge.
Til then, any theory lacks Factual support.
regds
Devinder
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The gravity of a particular system may have more to do with the position of the observer than with the system itself. My perception is certainly influenced from where I stand. If you stand opposite me, or separated by some degree then we may be traveling at different speeds along the curve of our understanding. This ought not to be too difficult a problem since simultaneity of Time in The New Way requires each component perspective. Perhaps we are not ‘there’ yet and so we find ourselves misunderstanding our being misunderstood… a lack of fluency to bridge the language gap within dialects and dialog…
In the first chapter of the Gnostic Circle Thea describes the process of reaching the Sun… we move from a static perspective of being Earth bound to a Gnostic Vision of being “…the Earth, the Moon, the Sun and the Centre, the bindu” all at the same time.
The flow of these words in TGC and the description therein seemingly transported me back some twenty years ago to when I first read them. And the words have the same affect on me today as they did then. There is something implicitly true in this message. Proof!Of course, reading something is altogether different from writing that for which the writer experienced. But for me reading the experience is a first step. Imagining where I stand before I actually stand there. A mere glimpse of the Yogini experience… but I’ve had experiences that help me relate to standing on the Moon at least if not the Sun. Athletes for example tend to ‘get in the zone’ in the midst of a movement to achieve a particular goal… “Time slows down” and assorted spheres of various size fly around according to the rules of the game, refereed by the orders written down in a Big Book somewhere. Albeit we can assume the athlete gets ‘in the zone’ unconsciously. Still, the individual acts in a way training the individual body like the collective acts, training the collective body over time. Techniques and abilities advance. Just as the Earth Perspective, the Moon Perspective, the Sun perspective and the Simultaneous Perspective are at work in Time together. There seems to be an interdependence involved. In that regard I am grateful to all of the contributions on this thread.
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This was posted on a new topic (The New Myth of the New Age), but I believe belongs here in this thread of discussion because Devinder makes reference to this comment above [‘All I wrote in my last post is that you need to either do it independent of vedas or else understand the vedas and then realign it.’]
Dear Lori,
I find you people strange somehow. On one side, you seem to be knowledgeable when it comes to astronomy and texts…and on the other side, you seem blinded by your following that you call a new cosomogy.
Strangely, you discuss the modern constellation boundaries as set by IAU in recent times , to the veda times and in the same breath, you all forget that vedic setup is based on nakshatras. So, you must first define what do you understand by nakshatra.
Would you please either live with your cosmoly independent of vedas or understand the setup of vedas and then align the two.
regds
Devinder
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Dear Hari Malla & Devinder,
One of the great mystics once said that there is a quality in the Soul called ‘Light’, a knowingness, which brings in more light than any intellect can give, indeed, all the light which the intellect can give is but a drop in the ocean beside this light. The perceptual power of this inner light is called ‘Seeing’, Recognition, Gnosis. One of its powers is a revelatory vision that immediately grasps the inner sense of ancient scripture that has left the rational mind bewildered. As the Rig Veda says, ‘Who can comprehend this?’ And in point of fact, no one has truly understood the Veda for thousands of years. Yet in the space of a hundred years we have three individuals who have cracked the code of the Veda and laid bare its sublime mysteries. With the descent of the 9th Avatar and his Line we have moved from Light to Superlight. Those qualities of the Soul that Sri Aurobindo described in his epic poem Savitri have been unveiled to a degree unequalled in human memory. All that the Gods have learned self-known have now been given to man. It is no mere revelation in the sense of the old religions but a comprehensive and integral ‘Future Realization’ that will not only re-define spirituality as we now understand it but open the way to a collective experience of Unity and a Life Divine.
One of the major characteristics of this Future Realization is its Integrality and Applicability. And this is what sets Thea’s work miles apart from the so-called Perennial Philosophies which tell us that a measureless, featureless, motionless void is the highest condition to which the puny human creature can aspire. For those embedded in the old teachings, a grasp of the new can be a difficult challenge as we have seen over the past few weeks on the Integral Cosmology forum. Since one of the differences between the old and the New turns upon its applicability we need to make a clear distinction between Thea’s work and what you are presenting.
Myth:
One of the main features of Thea’s New Way is its ability to unite the ancient myths within a comprehensive and integral cosmology. Only Thea has been able to rectify the order and timing of the Line of Ten avatars prominently featured in both the Vedic and Puranic myths. She has given form and meaning to the Churning of the Great Milk Ocean myth where none has before. The ‘Nine Puranic Creations’ have been given an evolutionary clarity never before achieved in the history of Indian spiritual literature. The list goes on and on with the mythic Horse of the Upanishads, the Cow (Ray) of the Veda, the Ganges and the River of January. Please tell us In what way Hari Malla’s home spun ‘barycenter cosmology’ has shed any light on the sacred myths.
History:
Thea’s Map of the 12 Manifestations has been discussed in some detail on this forum and it has been revealed to contain the hidden order of world history and the developmental scheme of both ancient and modern civilizations. With the Map and it’s Zodiacal keys, Thea has allowed us to access the hidden knowledge of many ancient civilizations which opened to the touch of these keys of time because all of them were built upon the bedrock of the same ecliptic zodiac and thus the same Cosmic Truth. What have Hari Malla and Devinder revealed of this ancient knowledge and its order?
Sacred Architecture:
One of the foundations of Indian Civilization, ‘something timelessly ancient’ wrote Sri Aurobindo, ‘ and now almost wholly lost’, is its Temple culture with a sublime heritage of sacred architectural and mythic forms. In the pages of her opus work, The New Way, Thea has given out the most precious and sacred architectural knowledge ever revealed. Through her unique understanding of Supramental Time, she has unveiled the geometries of the Mother’s Temple which is the greatest feat of sacred architecture and most supreme act of measuring ever achieved. In what way does Hari Malla’s beliefs in an unmoving point shed any light on or recover India’s timelessly ancient Temple & architectural knowledge?
Geo-cosmology & Geopolitics:
Through her precise understanding of cosmological correspondences and equivalencies Thea has revealed a new Indo-centric Cosmology that ‘sets each thing in its proper place’. She has measured the universe in such a way to prove that its very structure and movement are the common matrix for the organization of all human knowledge. She has followed these patterns and symmetries from the Cosmic and Planetary level to a highly specific individuation in the human domain. In applying the “zodiacal map” of the heavens upon the Earth we observe that the sign Capricorn starts exactly where the Indian landmass begins. The sign’s 30 degrees begin at 60/61 degrees East and continue to the mouth of the Ganges in the Bay of Bengal. The “tail” of the sign is carried over to encompass Burma, and from there swings back toward the central body. Through these cosmo-geographical correspondences we discover that India IS the sign Capricorn. In fact, one can readily “See” that the ancient hieroglyph forms an exact overlay of the Indian subcontinent. Its perfect alignment with this cardinal point identifies India as the “Soul of the Earth”. With this alignment we can also discover the archetypal nature of Nations and the forces behind geopolitical events in the world. While Hari Malla believes that he has discovered the ultimate knowledge, in what way does his nihilistic cosmology reveal anything of the order of the world and the unseen forces behind world events?
Epistemology & Transformation:
For millennia spiritual seekers like Hari Malla have tried to scale the heights of consciousness to dissolve their small ’self ‘ in that larger Self whose essence is Brahman, the non-dual, non-moving absolute. Most of these, said Sri Aurobindo, ‘…arrive at their object, but only to fall asleep in the infinite’. As a consequence they ignore the intervening planes that represent the ‘BRIDGE’ between Matter and Spirit, the Individual and the Absolute. The Nature of the New Way is Inclusive in a manner that produces a seamless knowledge and an Integral transformation. Through Thea’s Gnostic Circle and its applications, we now have a tool that allows us to navigate through our everyday lived experience with an awareness and orientation unequalled by any other means. As Thea wrote, ‘The Gnostic Circle is the most effective method for understanding the transformation of human consciousness. It represents a vision of wholeness and has only one objective: it deals with the soul or seed of the divine in each created thing and reveals the process by which that seed is made to flower in its process of becoming.’ Those of us who have worked with the Gnostic Circle and lived its cosmic harmonies have discovered the truth of these words and have realized something of the Soul which goes beyond all know epistemological theory. Thea has given us an entirely New Way of Transformation while Hari Malla keeps touting the old, nihilistic, sleep of the infinite and its unmoving center.
The revelations of Thea’s work go on to include Health and Healing, Physics, Indian Cultural Rituals, Music, Art; an almost unending list of new paradigms, updating of old models and new applications of the cosmological knowledge on myriad levels. It is a COMPLETE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE with which Hari Malla and Devinder cannot hope to compete. I challenge each of them and all comers to show us how their approach and the knowledge it provides is in any way comparable to what I have listed above. If they cannot, they should withdraw in all humility and stop arguing about things of which they have no direct knowledge.
Robert
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Dear Robert,
You can sort the issue of Hari Malla’s cosmology with Hari Malla. I don’t belong to it.
Instead of writing a lengthy post again and again with the contents similar in nature, why don’t you try these questions that I posed to Madam Thea:
1. Rigveda 1.154 does not have any Sanskrit word that can be translated as lion, bull or Friend. If one thinks so, please present the verse that spells out one of these words. Verses here are representing three steps that are related to the universe.
2. Vedas are centered on nakshatras. And you need to first understand and define nakshatra, if you really want to realign something.
3. You can not use modern constellation boundaries and moden assumed precession cycle of 25920 years,,,, and at same time speak of vedas in same breath. If you speak of the same, you need to present verses from veda that say precession cycle is 25920 years.
4. Tropical has its importance in ancient Indian texts and we need both. We might need improvements but we can’t ride any theory referring it to ancient texts without specifying the textual facts, understanding those facts and then aligning those facts with modern knowledge.
Til then, any theory lacks Factual support.
You wrote “I challenge each of them and all comers to show us how their approach and the knowledge it provides is in any way comparable to what I have listed above. ”
My reply: Your mere assertion does not prove anything. I am ready for an unbiased debate with anyone but one shall not say “This is X because I am saying this is X”… My arguments shall be purely based on logics and academics. My ideas are already listed in my book and whatever I have presented in my book is based on logical and academic support. In my next book, I wud even include how 4320K yuga scale was relevant. Only after understanding the ancient tone, one can relate it to the modern findings and look for a solution.
regds
Devinder
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FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAL
It is time to instruct Devinder and others about FACTS as per the Supramental Manifestation. When I present these FACTS, I request our friends to come up with answers, not what has been recently posted by Devinder when faced with the Capricorn Symbol-Map: to him this is ‘emotion’: I am caught up in a wave of emotion – as men usually claim patronisingly when faced with mysteries their science cannot explain BUT WOMEN UNDERSTAND.
The hieroglyph of Capricorn, India’s ruler, over Akhand Bharat
But the New Way does explain these mysteries. And that is what this website is about: we are lifting the veils on matters held inscrutable for centuries. They were known to the Rishis and were used to create an unparalleled civilisation. Nothing of that exists in India today except in temple architecture and iconography, and in some scriptures such as the Vedas, none of which can now be understood. Why they are not understood is the issue at hand: this is demonstrated in the above symbol-map: it is the zodiacal system that is ignored because the latter-day pundits themselves are ignorant of these mysteries. They therefore insist on boxing in the collective consciousness of this nation to suit a particular agenda. It is an agenda that was cemented in the destiny of India all during the last Age of Pisces. It was not the fault of the British, or the earlier Moguls, and all the rest that we conveniently foist the blame on for regression and the loss of the light: the fault line lies within.This degradation too is known through zodiacal lore. And because the Sanatana Dharma carries within an eternal Axis that permits stability within change, the Vishnu Line of Evolutionary Avatars, when the 9th in the Line arrives, we know that the time has come to re-establish that lost glory.
I have laboured for a change to the true Vedic calendar that will re-align Hindus of this 21st century to the harmony of that 9th Manifestation. But the pundits who rule over the masses of Hindus prefer to keep them ignorant of these self-evident truths and thereby they are forced to miss consciously participating in the glories of the New Way for the Earth, centred on India. Nonetheless, we are here, I have taken birth for this very purpose: to leave a record of the Supramental Manifestation – for future Ages, for a future that is opening up right now, before our eyes. Its first FACTUAL presence is known through the Indocentric cosmology of the New Way. Many will prefer to ignore these FACTS, but truth has a way of imposing itself. We have the entire cosmos with us, singing these praises.
The new Indocentric cosmology removes all hint of superstition from this zodiacal lore wherein India is central. The sign Capricorn can be measured on the globe, using our coordinates of latitude and longitude – so simple. This is the ruler for the purpose. It is the same One Circle of the Veda, laid around the globe (after all, the circle is always One, how can it be otherwise – or shall we call its 360 degrees ‘arbitrary’?). In one of the marvels of the New Way and its cosmology, we note that with this ruler when we reach the sign Capricorn, right there, at the 300th degree moving backwards through the zodiacal ruler along the longitudinal line, we touch the tip of the above map-symbol. Thus, India’s rulerdescends to Earth and finds its measure on this very planet we inhabit. India of the Sanatana Dharma is thus not some nebulous ‘idea’ that we can give any imaginative description to: It is only described by this hieroglyph, its very own ruling sign according to ancient astrological tradition.
The zodiacal ruler, laid across the Earth
But this isn’t all, if we do the same with latitude, laying it as a ruler around the Earth, we come to Capricorn again! (See The New Way, Vol. 2). Therefore, both ways, up, down, and around, Capricorn is India. This is the way to make prophecies FACTUAL. If Sri Aurobindo knew India to be a special nation, destined to introduce the Supramental Manifestation, these ‘facts’ are part of his avataric mission. And they can only be revealed by the Avatar himself and the Solar Line he set on its way in 1872, the year of his birth. My task as part of the Line is to do just what I am doing in these pages: to re-establish the long lost zodiacal lore, because without it we have only the Nirayana system that drives Hindus farther and farther away from the Sanatana Dharma. The current Nirayana system of astrology has no knowledge content. To prove a point that there is an ‘agenda’ behind it being imposed on Hindus, the zodiac as above is labelled foreign by these latter-day pundits. It has been replaced with the Nakshatras that have no knowledge content. I challenge our Nirayani friend to prove me wrong. Present here on this very forum FACTS such as I am placing before the participants in our discussion. Can you do so? And trust me, I am just beginning.Indeed, I will pass on to another query our friend Devinder constantly harps on: Why the ‘arbitrary’ 25,920 measure for one round of the Precession? We know the approximate time it takes for the Equinoctial plane extending from the Sun and within which the Earth and other planets orbit to cover one degree of the 360 of that One Circle. It is given as 72 (=9) years in all Mystery Schools. 72 x 360 degrees = 25,920 (=9). In fact, the entire study of cosmic harmonies orbits one grand numerical key: the number 9. (But I hasten to add that if mention is made of the 9, automatically we include the 0 since they are inseparable: 9=motion, 0=rest, of the same energy). We may thank Indian sages for giving us the number system 0-9 – lamentably in their own country this magnificent key of higher knowledge is lost!
Back to the Precession and 25,920. It is the 9th Evolutionary Avatar of Vishnu who sets the seal and sanction of the Supreme on that figure. The Solar Line members, which he heads, were born on days whose number values equal these digits 2-5-9-2 with the 0 added for time-volume, shall we say? The Mother’s birth date is 21.2.1878 which is reduced to 2 by the Vedic system of reducing a figure to its seed digit; Sri Aurobindo’s is 15.8.1872 which reduced to the seed digit as per Vedic Mathematics equals 5; the Third’s is 5.1.1938=9; the Fourth is 26.11.1963=2.
Facts, you ask for, Mr Devinder. Here are four births spread across a century, yet they together confirm the value of 25920. For me that is enough proof of what the ancients have held about the Precessional figure from time immemorial. Give me proof based on initiatic knowledge to refute this figure if you can – and since you cannot, be still and learn.
But you must answer how is it that four births are so arranged as to confirm this figure? I can go on in this vein, with 12 births that form the Axis of the New India which fit exactly into the pattern of 9/6/3/0-1, with three prime ministers giving actuality to these numbers – bringing them to Earth factually. As one enamoured of contemporary science, please explain to our members how this is possible? Who ‘arranges’ such a pattern, clearly BEFORE birth?
I am not going to give you the answers here. If you want them, make the effort and read. Buy The New Way series and examine these facts for yourself. After studying you can refute. Until then, I suggest you humble yourself before Knowledge. That is the least you can do to make yourself worthy of receiving this Light.
And regarding the ‘correction’ Nirayanis insist must be done to ‘the One Circle that shakes not in the least’, if we follow their system and all their shaking (!!!!) there is no possibility of locating the real Vishnu Avatar because of their entirely arbitrary and fictitious ‘shift’ of the signs, with therefore the Capricorn/Makar Sankranti celebrated 23 days AFTER the real entry to Capricorn. In this 9th Manifestation he is to be born under the zodiacal sign Leo/Lion. The Nirayanis shift the zodiac backward which places him in Cancer! The Mother is born in Pisces, as per the cosmic harmonies; instead the Nirayanis shift her into Aquarius! The same with the other two: the Third would be born in Sagittarius and not Capricorn, and so on. Therefore I question what their real agenda is. Any real, practicing astrologer knows that this simply does not work when studying a horoscope; but, alas, the knowledge content of each sign is now lost in India, thanks to the Nirayanis who insist on the Nakshatras, therefore, what does it matter. One could be born anywhere since they sustain the Beyond is our aim!
Ganga’s descent via Capricorn, her eternal essence
To conclude and this is especially close to my heart since it involves the number 3 and the Daughter Principle, we can bring the heavenly Ganga to Earth, removing the taint of superstition from one of the most glorious myths ever to be handed down in any civilisation. Through the new Indocentric cosmology, armed with the same zodiacal ruler, we locate the source of Ganga. This is done through the Capricorn sign of 30 degrees, as per the longitude ruler described above. As astrologers you all should know how to convert Ganga’s source located at the 12th degree of the sign-map to a particular day of the year through an ephemeris – unchanging, please note, thanks to the solar calendar and the zodiac. This translates to the 3rd of January each year, the true and unchanging Vedic date for the start of the Kumbh Mela. Therefore, if we want to remove the label of superstition from these heavenly myths, all we have to do is seek the cosmological perspective in the New Way. In so doing, we ‘see’ exactly how it came to be said that Ganga descended fromheaven onto the matted locks of Shiva (Mt Kailash or Mt Meru: actually the Capricorn Mountain that is reproduced in the Gopuram of every Hindu temple). It is that heavenly harmony that ‘contains’ Ganga which is Capricorn, her essence, and in so doing she is measuredon the body of the Earth – i.e., Ganga descends, and, as the diagram indicates, she ‘falls’ onto Shiva as Mt Kailash.All of this is lost in the Nirayana system – and certainly we have to question whether this is not the underlying agenda: to make it impossible to re-establish the Dharma, this time around using the tools of science itself as it stands in this 21st century. The latter cannot reveal, much less explain the Light as described above, and remove the taint of superstition the Raj with all its (on-going) proselytising bequeathed to the population in a carefully crafted plan to impede the Avatar’s mission from completing itself. But here we are, ready and willing to take on all of you, the falsifiers no less. But to stand up to this new Light, you have to come better armed than simply denial. Because that is all I hear from you: denial. You do not factually refute what I write – simply because you cannot.
The new paradigm that replaces the science of relativity and all that it has spawned, establishes its truth on the other side. How else to explain the Solar and Lunar harmonics through their respective birth dates; and far more importantly, that the sacred Formula of 9/6/3/0-1 has meaning. The numbers are not abstract as in contemporary mathematics where only function is the issue. ‘It works for technology, therefore it has the only value we seek.’ This is the reason why the world is what it is and moves toward destruction of the Earth: function devoid of sense and purpose. The higher harmonics of the new Indocentric cosmology cannot give rise to a world intent on destroying itself. When India realises this and turns to the Evolutionary 9th Avatar for guidance, then, and only then, will India fulfil Swami Vivekananda’s prophecy that India would be the Vishwa Guru. And then India’s scientists will be at the forefront of discoveries that will transform the world. Until then, they can only follow the lead of the West.
Thea26.5.2015
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Devinder,
In this reply I want to focus on your first point. Harish already addressed it, but to reiterate:
- mrigo…bhimah kucaro (mriga: beast/animal, bhimah: terrible/formidable, kucara: roaming). Sri Aurobindo translated this as a “terrible lion that ranges…” Griffith translates it as “some wild beast, dread, prowling”. It’s interesting that Sri Aurobindo never spoke about the Zodiacal content of the Veda, and yet still chose to translate “terrible roaming beast” as a Lion.
- vrshne – I am no expert, but according to my dictionary, vrshni can mean vrsha (Bull). Griffith translates it as Bull (capitalized).
- priyam…naro…madhva utsah (beloved [of] men…fount/well of sweetness) Sri Aurobindo translates as “Friend of Men who is the fount of sweetness”. You’re saying that, in this context, “priya” (beloved) cannot be translated as Friend?
You claim that these phrases “do not have any Sanskrit word that can be translated as lion, bull or Friend”. In other words, you claim that Sri Aurobindo was an incompetent translator, that a Lion is not a “terrible roaming animal”, that a Bull is not a Bull, and that a Friend is not beloved. This all seems a little absurd.
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Devinder,
As to your second point, in my study of the Veda, I have yet to find any mention of any constallations whatsoever, whether of lunar mansions or the modern IAU ones. As far as I can tell, constellations were not part of the symbolism used by the Vedic rishis. On the other hand, we find several references to a wheel of 360 degrees/days/spokes, divided into 12 equal portions. Would you point me to the RV verses that mention the 27 constellations of post-Vedic astrology?
Third point, the precession of 25,920 years is similar to the year of 360 days: it is an ideal measure. As we both know, the number 25,920 is not mentioned anywhere in the Vedas. To understand why the composers of the Veda preferred whole, harmonic numbers divisible by 9, such as 360, you need to understand the language of Number, or so-called Vedic mathematics.
I agree with your fourth point – we share this much in common, and it alone aught to be enough to move us toward a mutual understanding… I encourage you to read and digest Thea’s detailed reply above.
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Arinaya, we always come to the same point: contemporary Indian astrologers and pundits have lost the knowledge of the meaning of the zodiacal signs. Therefore they have eliminated them and refer only to Nakshatras and to the astrological houses for interpretations; limiting them to a very superficial layer of the Art. This being the case, astrology in India is purely used for prediction, not a path of self-perfection, and certainly not the Journey of the Rig Veda (Lori has made this clear in her discussion of The Magical Carousel, the new myth.)
Every astrologer the world over knows that the 11th sign Aquarius, and its natural 11th House, refers to ‘friends’. That is where one locates friendsips of an individual in purely predictive astrology. When used by the Rishis it obviously refers to a Vedic God Mitra and not simply an individual’s friendships. There is a higher level and a lesser in these matters, as in Sanskrit itself, for which reason it lends itself so beautifully to these higher consciousness matters. It is the astrologer’s intuition that indicates to him where that individual stands in the ascending ladder of consciousness. As I have pointed out on many occasions, there are two aspects to a person’s natal horoscope: one is horizontal – that One Circle ‘that shakes not in the least’, the other is vertical, like an ascending ladder from that foudnaiton. The higher one progresses the more one ‘sees’ of that single foundation. Obviously if you are at the first rung of ascension, you cannot have a vision of the whole. That comes as you move up. In the highest heights you enter the Supramental Consciousness where Truth is self-evident.
The zodiac is a connected whole. Its Knowledge content was lost (in the West as well) when it was not seen as a connected ‘journey’, as it is called in the Veda. Sri Aurobindo makes this clear in his The Secret of the Veda. And since he was well versed in these matters, naturally he understood exactly how the words had to be translated in order to convey the higher knowledge they contain. In other words, he realised, as it is also clear to me, that these steps were so obviously referring to three connected zodiacal signs. In the Vedic Age there was no need to spell them out clearly (‘This refers to the zodiac!’) because it was a common language, known to all Initiates. But that is now a thing of the far distant past. It has been submerged/hidden in the Ocean of Pisces/Matsya – of course to be retrieved in this new Aquarian Age. On the basis of the unity consciousness one acquires in the practice of certain yogas, there can be no other translations for the Three Steps of Vishnu.
To conclude, by positing those steps in the One Circle of Three Hubs (my Map of the 12 Manifestation), we can locate the time of the appearances of these Vishnu emanations. In other words, we can APPLY the verses and draw them out of the stagnant realm of mere speculation and abstraction; after all, what applicable ‘sense’ can be really made of Vishnu Trivikrama roaming around the universe in a void? The pundits will say, but who is your authority for this ‘interpretation’. I say, Sri Aurobindo and Thea say it! The ‘authority’ is truth-seeing.
Doesn’t it make sense that the only verses directly evoking Vishnu should hold the key to his Line of Ten? But of course this is denied because these latter-day pundits will not accept that the Line of Ten was of the Vedic Age and not Puranic. This is where the problem really lies. To accept my reading they would have to turn upside-down their entire interpretation of the matters. Another objection is the entrenched belief that the zodiac was not known in India until the Greeks bought it. The reason for this objection is the fear that when I insist on finding it in the Rig Veda it would lend credence to the foriegn Indologists dating of the RV around 1500 BCE. Therefore, all sorts of abuses are heaped on me for my bold exposition, even to being called anti-Hindu.
Someday all this will be accepted as self-evident.
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Dear Arinaya,
Let us start from reverse since you have agreed on point 4.
4) I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later. But our agreement does not mean that it has to be the way you people are specifying as. It means we need to udnerstand right in logical/ academical manner and then realign.
3) Here also you have agreed that vedas don’t specify 25920 years. Why don’t you write details of what is your understanding of Vedic Maths rather than getting emotional on this? 360 days are 360 spokes, what does 9 has to do with this? And if you are still hell bound on 9, why 9? Why just 25920?, even 27000, 36000 are also divisible by 9?
2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
1) RV 1.154 –
2-Wild beast was referred Lion by not Sri Aurobindo but by Wilson in his translation in 1854 AD that also rendered to Sayana and only in comments.
3-Same Wilson did not specify Bull for Vrshne. It is only Griffith who specified Bull…. actually Bull is out of sync in the whole verse.. It is not Vrishabh…..Bur VrshNe i.e. “showerer”
5-The third part “Priya” is totally out of sync as all the translators have rightly commented it as “the well loved” ….If at all someone is lookout for “Friend”, it could be “Bandhu” …….. Now aligning Bandhu to Aquarius since 11th sign is for friendship is all imagination to align the wrongly understood Bull in 3) above…… and what abt Scorpio?
regds
Devinder
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Madam Thea,
Leaving aside your emotional outburst and referring pundits, nirayanis etc…, I would straightway come to the point.
By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era.
Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
I would advise you to think broadly. You are struck with God Mitra since you are eyeing your desired “Friend” in it, but at same time forget about the other Gods mentioned Indra, Varun, Maruts, Agni etc. What is your answer to those Gods, how you read them?
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
BTW, I am not a pundit by caste and as per ancient scriptures, everyone is born Shudra by birth and it is with deeds, one becomes Brahmin, Kshatriya etc..
Your Nirayani friend or rather Your Nirayani Mithra,
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
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Devinder, it is disheartening to see that after reading Thea’s FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAl you can only write “I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later.” I find it insulting and dismissive. It means you have distorted the Power and Force behind her writing as ’emotional’, an adjective you have thrown out before. The beauty of the Knowledge of Akand Bharat and that image of Capricorn on her Body is awe inspiring and yet your first response to this extraordinary revelation is ’emotional posting’. How very strange.
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tim wrote:
The gravity of a particular system may have more to do with the position of the observer than with the system itself. My perception is certainly influenced from where I stand. If you stand opposite me, or separated by some degree then we may be traveling at different speeds along the curve of our understanding. This ought not to be too difficult a problem since simultaneity of Time in The New Way requires each component perspective. Perhaps we are not ‘there’ yet and so we find ourselves misunderstanding our being misunderstood… a lack of fluency to bridge the language gap within dialects and dialog… In the first chapter of the Gnostic Circle Thea describes the process of reaching the Sun… we move from a static perspective of being Earth bound to a Gnostic Vision of being “…the Earth, the Moon, the Sun and the Centre, the bindu” all at the same time. The flow of these words in TGC and the description therein seemingly transported me back some twenty years ago to when I first read them. And the words have the same affect on me today as they did then. There is something implicitly true in this message. Proof! Of course, reading something is altogether different from writing that for which the writer experienced. But for me reading the experience is a first step. Imagining where I stand before I actually stand there. A mere glimpse of the Yogini experience… but I’ve had experiences that help me relate to standing on the Moon at least if not the Sun. Athletes for example tend to ‘get in the zone’ in the midst of a movement to achieve a particular goal… “Time slows down” and assorted spheres of various size fly around according to the rules of the game, refereed by the orders written down in a Big Book somewhere. Albeit we can assume the athlete gets ‘in the zone’ unconsciously. Still, the individual acts in a way training the individual body like the collective acts, training the collective body over time. Techniques and abilities advance. Just as the Earth Perspective, the Moon Perspective, the Sun perspective and the Simultaneous Perspective are at work in Time together. There seems to be an interdependence involved. In that regard I am grateful to all of the contributions on this thread.
Dear Tim,
I think I like your approach. The earth perspective, the moon perspective and the sun perspective are the most important to understand than others . Our answer is there at the simultaneous perspective..Where is the mention of the details of the three perspetctives?
Hari Malla
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Dear Jc,
Cool… I am expecting all these outbursts.. so I am cooler inside. Look at another emotional outburst by you.
Did you expect me to reply to Ms. Thea without reading what she wrote. I think that would have been just an emotional reaction to an emotional starting action….and would not have been fair to her.
Instead of all these bad feelings, pl. participate in the discussion with broad mind instead of mere assertions. Only then it might lead closer to FACTUAL.
Coming to the real discussion, You seem late comer to the discussion, so read all the posts from the beginning. And before aligning your cosmology to vedas, tell me “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?”
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
jc wrote:
Devinder, it is disheartening to see that after reading Thea’s FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAl you can only write “I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later.” I find it insulting and dismissive. It means you have distorted the Power and Force behind her writing as ’emotional’, an adjective you have thrown out before. The beauty of the Knowledge of Akand Bharat and that image of Capricorn on her Body is awe inspiring and yet your first response to this extraordinary revelation is ’emotional posting’. How very strange.
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thea wrote:
I need to conclude what I started above, unfortunately without the graphics. The point that needs to be made is that there is always only One Circle. That is the Constant, and it is the circle of 12 with their zodiacal signs and symbols. Why? Because that is where one finds VEDA – the Knowledge content. Otherwise it is a meaningless wheel that makes no sense. This is what we have today with astronomy taking over astrology. No sense, just a meaningless exercise that cannot be APPLIED. To conclude on that One Circle of the RV verses, there is also specific mention of those 3 hubs. If you see my Map of 12 there are three hubs, along with all the rest. Clearly this Map was known to the Rishis. It would appear that I am simply re-establishing a very ancient knowledge. And please note that I discover this Map well before reading these verses.
Dear Theaji,
Perhaps I should have given more time to understoond your cosmology better. But i am feeliing impatient to reply. Please note that one precessional cycle has been termed as one Kalpa which is Brahmaji’s one day. Then equal time is his night as per the old belief. This has been called as one thousand yugas in Gita too. One fourteenth part of that is one manawantar which you have called as one yuga. The proof of this fact is mentioned in Bhagvata Purana which says Kalpa is the son of the Pole point. This means one Kalpa is one precessional cycle of the pole point. This point was not known to Indain shcolars at the time of Guru Aurobindo. It has been discovered only about one decade ago in Nepal. Presently Indian scholars are still faltering on this concept. Even Devinder is yet to accepted this concept.
So i would like to say the three hub concept is not found in the Vedas, as you have interpreted..They tallk of Pralaya after each day of Brahmaji. The manwantars are described in details. So the three precesional cycle periods of yours is unknown to the Vedas. The TriVikram concept only means the triangle formed by the three directions related with the earth which are the earth axis or the celestial pole, the ecliptic and the ecliptic pole. This belongs to the Fifth incarnation of God which is limited to the earth only. The remaining five incarnations are related to the moon and the lunar pole ie the Earth Moon barycenter which is the marriage of Shiva and Shakti..This marriage is well represented by the Om symbol. The three lines represent the three gunas of the earth, the Chandara ( crescent of the moon) represents the moon and the Bindu represents the EM barycenter. This Bindu is directly linked to the sun. It is also called as Aditya or Sunday. In the western language this EM Barycenter is known as Sunday or the first day of Creation in the old Testament.. The ressurrection of Jesus on Sunday after his crucifixion on the vernal equinoctial full moon , means this point only. Jesus has taken lot of pains to explain the three days ie of crucifixion on Friday, dying on Saturday and ressurrection on Sunday. Sunday means the center of the lunar month, where the Purush or Consciousness is said to be located..This point or Bindu is also described as the Hollow earth by some people.
Thus my request to you to convince the Christians world to accept the lunar dates into their calendar since Sunday is the center of the lunar months. Also to request the moslems to accept the seasons into thier lunar calendars of the sake of world peace…We can work together in harmony. The modern world bakdy needs these reforms., no less than one month shift of Hindu calendar in the name of manawantar shift..
Please do not get irritated with my repeating of this request. It is the demand of the present time. i find you are the capable person for this stupendous task. Thank you,
Hari Malla
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lori wrote:
I’ve been following this important ACC discussion this past week, mulling over the posts, trying to understand, integrate and such. I’d like to thank all who are participating in this forum topic, which is very revealing and educational. Hari Malla your comments have perplexed me quite a bit. I feel like I enter a maze when I read your posts. You speak of yoga and harmonies and marriage between Shiva-Shakti, Earth-Moon and such but the tone that comes through is duality, not unity. I get the impression from your ideas about the EM barycenter of the Earth-Moon that you have yet to understand/comprehend the Vedic realization of the One, or the Divine Flame Agni at the heart or core of each Individual Being. Hence for you, it seems entirely plausible that the real center which creates our consciousness is located at the barycenter created by the dance between the Earth and the Moon which itself moves about as Robert wrote, because ‘the distribution of Mass is not a constant value’. It also needs to be noted that ‘The point [barycentre] is also continually moving longitudinally within the Earth as the Earth performs its daily axial rotation and the Moon performs its regular 360 degree observed orbit around the Earth.’ Essentially the barycenter is a point of BALANCE between two or more objects. The problem when trying to make this balance point the CENTER of consciousness is that it is, in essence EMPTY. It is not the Hiraṇyagarbha (‘golden womb’ or ‘golden egg’) of our existence. This point did not create the Earth and it did not create the Moon. It is not in any way a point of origin or source or creation. It is a gravitational phenomenon resulting from the Earth and Moon’s independent yet intertwined existence. To equate this balance point with the Purusha and hence with Agni and the center of the Vedic Sacrifice (i.e. Year) is a serious error in judgement. It is preposterous from the point of Higher Knowledge. The barycenter of two or more Individual beings (whoever or where ever they may be) does not constitute the immobile center/divine flame from which order arises. You have lost the plot on this one. The BALANCE point of the barycenter is akin in the Zodiac to the Libra cardinal point (whose symbol is a balancing scale). Students of the Supramental Cosmology will be able to appreciate your comments in light of this stage of the zodiac in which the Balance and Harmony which is adhered to is not yet the True Thing. It is base on the Void (which infers a void of knowledge) where there is a shattering of consciousness and the Mind begins to go increasingly out from the center towards the external surround into increasingly fragmented and fragmenting patterns and manifestations of thought (the plight of our modern world). From this Void in consciousness, words begin to lose their meaning, because the real center of the manifestation (creation) is lost and people begin to make up their own meaning and interpretations (as if Truth was relative … not based on anything stable/concrete as the Vedic Rishi’s conveyed in the concept of Skambha). Hence in our Modern age, one can speak of high Vedic concepts or symbols and have no real connection to the POINT or the Oneness from which these Vedic concepts and symbols arise. This is what you seem to be doing Hari Malla. Trying to find a balance and a harmony between different systems of science, religion and yoga, but this approach is doomed to failure. It is off-center and ‘half-baked’ in terms of the evolution of consciousness and in terms of all that remains to be seen and known. All your imaginative slant does is add another interminable maze to the confusion the world population is already thoroughly mired in. The work of Thea and Aeon Centre of Cosmology is intended to draw people out of such mazes. Yourself included if willing. You write that Thea is ‘lost in the maze of Time’ but you would do well to reconsider who is lost. There is the possibility of revelation at hand, wherein the hopelessly hollow judgements an opinions of the Egoic Mind, give way to higher knowledge (Sagittarius) pointing the way to the birth of the True Centre in our consciousness (Capricorn). Anyone who has read and truly comprehended Thea’s books The Gnostic Circle and The Magical Carousel knows that your opinion regarding Thea being lost in Time is the very opposite of the truth. She comprehends the Time-Spirit and its past, present and future movements better than anyone else alive and has demonstrated how it informs evolution and manifestation. Any one who has read and truly comprehended her books can clearly see where your consciousness has become stuck or calcified in Time, like an artefact from the past. Your position can be easily plotted out (found or put in its place) on the map of Time. You live in the present with us, but your consciousness is ‘barycentered’ somewhere the past … lagging behind the present moment in time. You do not take into account at all the supramental and all-harmonizing knowledge that has been introduced by Sri Aurobindo, the Mother and Thea since the beginning of the 20th century. They have brought forth a new manifestation of knowledge, knowledge necessary for our new age of Unity. There is a lot new to be learned Hari Malla, and you seem to be spending your time and energies standing as a guard or custodian of the past, intent on maintaining hollow ideas of harmonies, balance points, marriages, yogas, symbols, deities as well as of the zodiac, rather than using your time and energies to drop deeper into the common Point of our existence … into Agni’s seat wherein all Time and Space is contained and born. Once one approaches this seat of Gnosis, it becomes clear that Agni’s 12 month Earthly journey or ‘sacrifice’ cannot be a measure of the surrounding Space or Sky (constellations). The 12 month measure of Agni’s extension in Time and Space functions as the measure of the Purusha, the Cosmic Self, but this measure (as Agni himself) is self-born, self-contained, it is not established outside the Earth or outside the Individual. In addition to being ‘self-born’, Agni is said to be born of two sticks (Aranis), typically thought of as Earth and Heaven. It seems to me that these sticks are symbolic of not only Earth and Heaven, but of the two axes from which Agni and the Vedic Sacrifice is born, i.e. the two axes of the Solstices and the Equinoxes. The Earth’s symbol is a Cardinal Cross within a circle. Are we to believe that these two axes (sticks) of the Earth have nothing to do with Agni’s sacrificial year (i.e. the Zodiac)? It just seems so very upside-down and backwards to continue to insist that the Vedic Year/Zodiac is disconnected from the Earth’s own experience, from her own Geometries of Time as established by her very real axes (the Cardinal Cross) in Time and Space and as experienced by the Earth and her inhabitants. To assert that the Zodiac is about the movements of the constellations or the cosmic surround rather than the movements of LIFE/CONSCIOUSNESS on Earth, is an ongoing folly. This folly has been exposed via the yoga and writings of Thea and there is no going back, no crawling back into a time where this folly has not been thoroughly exposed. The cat is out of the bag. The Zodiac is an extension of Agni, of the One Self in all selves. It is established from the INSIDE, from the Centre of Being, extending out, not the other way around, not established externally. However Nirayani astrologers argue the point, it will not change the indwelling essence and structure of the Zodiac which is the measure or structure of Agni’s (our soul’s) journey in Time and Space. The Vedic Year and the Earth’s Tropical Year are one in the same. The Earth Herself is an exquisite womb of harmonies because Agni or the Divine Flame (the Immanent ‘Son’ of the Sun and of the Transcendent Divine) lies hidden in her Core. It is time for the world to begin to acknowledge and come to terms with this divine status and function of Mother Earth and a first step is to acknowledge and come to terms with the true measure of the Zodiac … the Earth’s measure. It’s quite a collosal step considering not only how many proceed to deny and trash Her Being in whatever subtle or not so subtle ways, but also considering how many are either attached to the Zodiac as being either something that Transcends the Earth’s own field of being or something that is an ignorant superstition that has nothing to do with anything at all important. Simply put, the Zodiac is Immanent within the Earth and hence Immanent within each Individual on it. It is a measure that is in us, a measure that is observed by the soul, even if not observed by the mind. I hope this becomes more and more obvious to readers.
Dear Loriji,
Please try to experience the EM Barycetner within your mind and you will thereby discover the Bindu, Purush or God. This point is the Trinity God or the meeting of Brahma( pole star, earth axis), Vishnu( sun) and Shiva ( the moon). This point is also called as Sunday or the hollow earth. You will perhaps remember from the live image of the Barycenter you have posted, that this point falls within the earth surface at the marking of the cross, in the live drawing in Wikipaedia…
You seem to be quite intelligent person. So i request you to compare all the description of Purush in the Vedas and Dharma shasras to this point. you will be fully satisfied. In Kala madhava, a book of Dharma shastras,. you will find that center of lunar month is the very definition of Purusha. There are 12 Purushas to match with the 12 lunar months in the year and are called as 12 Adityas.. The first month after winter solstice is called as Arun of the month of Maagha, the second as Surya of the month of Falguna, the third is Bhanu of the month of Chaitra etc. With your further curiosity i will surely satisfy you.
You perhps know about Purusha and prakriti as the two entitties who create life. They are two from one point of view but are one from the gravitational point of view. The sun does not pull the earth and the moon separately. it pulls both of them at their common center of Mass. Finding the center of mass is called as Yoga and joning of the two is calledd as attachment. Hope you remember Krishna repeating “not to get attached but to practise yoga.”. Yoga is findng the center of mass of two objects which are placed in space naerby. When we reach the sun in our heart through it (E-M Barycenter), we have achieved true yoga The sun is thus called as Atma in astrology..
Also kindly note that during evolution life, the sun makes our heart and the moon makes our brain. Thank you,
Hari Malla
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harimalla wrote:
tim wrote:
Where is the mention of the details of the three perspetctives? Hari Malla
Hari,
May I call you Hari? The details of the three perspectives are taken from the opening of The Gnostic Circle. I remember when I first read the passage I was awestruck. I think I stayed on the same page for a day without reading on due to being frozen like a kid at a fireworks display. Very simple I suppose but so elegant… I agree that there is tremendous power in perspective. The first chapter describe the Essential Purpose of the stidy of the Cosmic Harmonies. The approach I described was certainly not something I made up. It was borrowed liberally from TGC in the section detailing The Goal. These few passages spun my head around…
Not sure if you have The Gnostic Circle but that volume contains pearls that would be worth reading.
All the best,
Tim
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Lori,
Devinder gave us a link a few days ago to his book THE UNANSWERED. I purused the first few chapters: He has put a lot of effort into exploring and teaching about the Ayanamsa Puzzle – Various Ayanamsas, Roots and Pitfalls. In fact there are pages of different zero points, and so forth. That is a primary focus of his research; whereas, as you point out in your recent posting Thea and group see the zodiac as a script for transformation of the soul, the earth.
Wouldn’t it be great if he could study The Magical Carousel and Commentaries?
It really does depend on where you stand, to make your observations… patricia
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Folks, thanks to Aurobindoavatar we can engage in UPDATING. We can move on to greater heights, wider perceptions, and are not bogged down in a past that gets us nowhere today. Thank God for the applicability we enoyy today. I see no applicability at all in what Devinder and Harimalla write.
I have never hunted through scriptures to find hints that might clarify the present. It has always been the reverse: realise in the present, then the past will find its place. And it has, far more convincingly than what has been expounded by these gentlemen. I admit that their comments leave my head spinning! What confusion for something so simple.
One plunges into the Soul-Point and there, through realisation, one SEES. It is the approach to these matters that separate us: the act of Seeing. If our firends cannot appreciate that, certainly there is no meeting point because they will never recognise the same thing IN THE PRESENT. UPDATED. They still cling to the Buddha as the 9th Avatar of Vishnu! Aurobindoavatar, the 9th, makes the position clear: when disciples asked him about the Line of Ten, he explains the role of the 7th Ramavatar (Mind), and the 8th Krishnavatar (Overmind) and what they bring to the evolution of the species. He writes very clearly about the Buddha (which tallies exactly with what I have found regarding his placement on the wheel of Time and the ‘escape point’ in TGC at the 4.5 Orbit) and how he could never have been an emanation of Vishnu, having been born about 2500 years too early. Aurobindoavatar then passes directly over the Buddha and moves on to the next in the Line that brings the Supermind: Mind, Overmind, and Supermind. Factual, clear, elegant, simple.
The fact is we have a solid background he and the Mother have left us to build on. Others do not have this.
UPDATING. Moving on, escaping the deadly hold of Inertia. That’s the goal. Thea
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Jan wrote,
‘Devinder, it is disheartening to see that after reading Thea’s FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAl you can only write “I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later.” I find it insulting and dismissive. It means you have distorted the Power and Force behind her writing as ’emotional’, an adjective you have thrown out before. The beauty of the Knowledge of Akand Bharat and that image of Capricorn on her Body is awe inspiring and yet your first response to this extraordinary revelation is ’emotional posting’. How very strange.’
The patronising continues, alas, truly reflective of the Old Consciousness: it is an instinctive, atavistic response. Let’s leave it at that.
Regrading the Capricorn/Makar map-symbol, after all the solid evidence of its contemporary relevance and applicability for India that I deliberately presented – full well expecting NO RESPONSE – how can we proceed ‘discussing’? You see, this for me is FACT. for others it falls in the bracket of – what? I want an explanation from our friends. How can they explain the FACT that this most ancient hieroglyph, the origins of which are lost in the mists of time (don’t try to pass it off as Babylonian!) describes the Indian landmass. They will cry COINCIDENCE, which is the convenient label scientists bandy about when confronted with these astonishing harmonies time and again. Therefore, I deliberately presented more via the birth dates and 25920. Again cavalier dismissal. When I discover these harmonies (page after page are presented in my books) I am left in a state of wonder and awe before the implications of such discoveries. These gentlemen experience no such thing! And this I find pathetic – what a sad condition to be in. That the Supreme Consciousness could arrange 12 births in perfect synchronicity with a pre-given formula, covering a century, down the line of Time, is not even considered a relevant part of the discussion. So, what else must that Consciousness do to make its FACTUAL PRESENCE and CONTROL known to the human species?
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Madam Thea,
In an academic and logical discussion, one has to be focussed. I proposed in the beginning “Either present your understandign of cosmology independent of vedas or align it properly.”
Obviously your cosmology understandind is not in line with vedas. Instead of getting emotional again and again, why don’t you straight way answer my questions raised in my last post, I am reposting here:
By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era.
Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
I would advise you to think broadly. You are struck with God Mitra since you are eyeing your desired “Friend” in it, but at same time forget about the other Gods mentioned Indra, Varun, Maruts, Agni etc. What is your answer to those Gods, how you read them?
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
Also, add another question “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?” as raised to JC in another post.
regds
Devinder
thea wrote:
Jan wrote, ‘Devinder, it is disheartening to see that after reading Thea’s FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAl you can only write “I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later.” I find it insulting and dismissive. It means you have distorted the Power and Force behind her writing as ’emotional’, an adjective you have thrown out before. The beauty of the Knowledge of Akand Bharat and that image of Capricorn on her Body is awe inspiring and yet your first response to this extraordinary revelation is ’emotional posting’. How very strange.’ The patronising continues, alas, truly reflective of the Old Consciousness: it is an instinctive, atavistic response. Let’s leave it at that. Regrading the Capricorn/Makar map-symbol, after all the solid evidence of its contemporary relevance and applicability for India that I deliberately presented – full well expecting NO RESPONSE – how can we proceed ‘discussing’? You see, this for me is FACT. for others it falls in the bracket of – what? I want an explanation from our friends. How can they explain the FACT that this most ancient hieroglyph, the origins of which are lost in the mists of time (don’t try to pass it off as Babylonian!) describes the Indian landmass. They will cry COINCIDENCE, which is the convenient label scientists bandy about when confronted with these astonishing harmonies time and again. Therefore, I deliberately presented more via the birth dates and 25920. Again cavalier dismissal. When I discover these harmonies (page after page are presented in my books) I am left in a state of wonder and awe before the implications of such discoveries. These gentlemen experience no such thing! And this I find pathetic – what a sad condition to be in. That the Supreme Consciousness could arrange 12 births in perfect synchronicity with a pre-given formula, covering a century, down the line of Time, is not even considered a relevant part of the discussion. So, what else must that Consciousness do to make its FACTUAL PRESENCE and CONTROL known to the human species?
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Dear Patricia,
Thanks for reading and acknowledging the efforts. If book is read completely, major part of research would explain how there is alignement of ancient and modern astronomy and would provide why it is called ayanamsa and not vishuwamsa. Major finds of the research are afterwards.
As far as your ideas of cosmology are concerned, if you call it out of spiritual awakening etc. , I don’t have any problem. Moment you want to relate it to vedas and logics or to say FACTUAL support, you just can’t escape the questions I have raised and unless you have answers, it is bound to fail as an alignment and can just exist as standalone.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
patriciaheidt wrote:
Lori, Devinder gave us a link a few days ago to his book THE UNANSWERED. I purused the first few chapters: He has put a lot of effort into exploring and teaching about the Ayanamsa Puzzle – Various Ayanamsas, Roots and Pitfalls. In fact there are pages of different zero points, and so forth. That is a primary focus of his research; whereas, as you point out in your recent posting Thea and group see the zodiac as a script for transformation of the soul, the earth. Wouldn’t it be great if he could study The Magical Carousel and Commentaries? It really does depend on where you stand, to make your observations… patricia
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Devinder has written:
‘…You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era…’
When or where have I asserted that 1500 BCE is the date of the Rig Veda composition?
Then this colossal declaration from Devinder follows, and it goes to prove my point that this zodiacal lore, the basis of the ancient tradition worldwide, not only in Vedic India, is entirely lost on these latter-day astrologers/astronomers/pundits:
‘This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
Also, add another question “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?” as raised to JC in another post.‘
My Lord, does he not know that every Hindu Temple in existence worldwide reproduces the innermost meaning of Capricorn? Capricorn is the supreme North Mountain of the circle. In case he does not know, it is Makar in Hindustan, as in the Makar Sankranti. The main Gopuram of every temple is that very Mountain; more than that, once inside the seeker is lead to the sanctum sanctorum, the Cave within the Mountain.
All he has to do is to read the scholarly work of Stella Kramisch, The Hindu Temple,published by Motilal Banarsidass to realise that Capricorn is the essence of every one. There are entire chapters regrading the Mountain in the north, the best of all, and so forth. And further, the Cave (garbhagriha) within that supreme Mountain. Unfortunately Kramisch also did not know the tradition otherwise she could have been far more incisive in her scholarship. The fact is that every astrologer knows the four Cardinal Points are Aries – Cosmic Dawn; Cancer – Cosmic Midnight; Libra – Cosmic Sunset; and finally Capricorn (north direction) – Cosmic Midday, the mountaintop where the Sun casts no shadows. I can quote endlessly on references to these facts, but how can one who knows nothing of these traditions appreciate them, and much less acknowledge them as true? Kramisch even describes the spout where the libations flow out as situated in the northcorner of the garbhagriha done always as per scriptures in the form of Makar – that is, Capricorn. In Hindu lore the animal image is a crocodile/makar, elsewhere it is the goat with a tail of a fish. The message being conveyed is the amphibious nature of the symbolism. The Goat/fish is more to the point because it conveys the abyss and the heightsin one connected symbol; but this is compensated for in Vedic/Hindu tradition by the Gods allotted to each sign/symbol: Varuna in the case of Makar, the God whose vahana in fact is a makar? If you read Sri Aurobindo’s description of Varun in his psycho-spiritual reading of the Rig Veda, The Secret of the Veda, there can be no doubt about the correspondence.
I repeat, if these gentlemen do not know zodiacal lore, how can they even enter into a discussion with me? Though they do, each of their coments makes clear to readers the very point I am making: THIS IS A KNOWLEDGE NOW LOST IN INDIA. Therefore they go on endlessly with their respective ayanamshas, none of which can be effectively appliedThey are all speculative. They are relative, each one basing their calculations on points of reference that have no meaning, no stability and objectivity and vallidity TODAY: they are based on subjective surmises that takes us nowhere near the true way.
My point: the Knowledge (veda) is lost. Let us engage in the POSITIVE exercise of re-instating what the ancients knew, and what has been preserved (as a strategy during passage through the Dark Age) in the Hindu Temple, where there is zodiacal lore everywhere. But if one does not know what to look for – well, then we have a problem!
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Madam Thea,
You wrote in post dated 27th May, 02: 35 “Another objection is the entrenched belief that the zodiac was not known in India until the Greeks bought it. The reason for this objection is the fear that when I insist on finding it in the Rig Veda it would lend credence to the foriegn Indologists dating of the RV around 1500 BCE. ”
What shall one deduce from it. First of all, many people including myself don’t believe that zodiac was brought to India by Greek. We know and in fact, even many foreign authors could not prove that it did not exist in India independently. So, from where did you get this statement – obviously from few people.
Anyways, if you did not want to specify your date as 1500 BC, what is your date. None of the dates as speculated by many authors belong post Christ era. So my original question remains intact
Q1) “By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and when vedas were there before Christ era… …. these numbers can never represent vedic era. To simplify, we never had January, February in vedic times with January having 31 days etc…etc…
You have not yet answered the second question, I repost
Q2) Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
On symbol of capricorn, you have not yet understood the question and hasting to conclude that I don’t know about cardinal points and symbols.
So, I repost question 3 as you have not still answered
Q3) Where do you find symbol of capricorn in vedas? Please provide verse number from vedas.
You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question
Q4) What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
I would again reiterate where I began my last post “In an academic and logical discussion, one has to be focussed. I proposed in the beginning “Either present your understandign of cosmology independent of vedas or align it properly.”
So, would you please answer the real stuff.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
thea wrote:
Devinder has written: ‘…You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era…’ When or where have I asserted that 1500 BCE is the date of the Rig Veda composition? Then this colossal declaration from Devinder follows, and it goes to prove my point that this zodiacal lore, the basis of the ancient tradition worldwide, not only in Vedic India, is entirely lost on these latter-day astrologers/astronomers/pundits: ‘This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.” Also, add another question “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?” as raised to JC in another post.’ My Lord, does he not know that every Hindu Temple in existence worldwide reproduces the innermost meaning of Capricorn? Capricorn is the supreme North Mountain of the circle. In case he does not know, it is Makar in Hindustan, as in the Makar Sankranti. The main Gopuram of every temple is that very Mountain; more than that, once inside the seeker is lead to the sanctum sanctorum, the Cave within the Mountain. All he has to do is to read the scholarly work of Stella Kramisch, The Hindu Temple, published by Motilal Banarsidass to realise that Capricorn is the essence of every one. There are entire chapters regrading the Mountain in the north, the best of all, and so forth. And further, the Cave (garbhagriha) within that supreme Mountain. Unfortunately Kramisch also did not know the tradition otherwise she could have been far more incisive in her scholarship. The fact is that every astrologer knows the four Cardinal Points are Aries – Cosmic Dawn; Cancer – Cosmic Midnight; Libra – Cosmic Sunset; and finally Capricorn (north direction) – Cosmic Midday, the mountaintop where the Sun casts no shadows. I can quote endlessly on references to these facts, but how can one who knows nothing of these traditions appreciate them, and much less acknowledge them as true? Kramisch even describes the spout where the libations flow out as situated in the north corner of the garbhagriha done always as per scriptures in the form of Makar – that is, Capricorn. In Hindu lore the animal image is a crocodile/makar, elsewhere it is the goat with a tail of a fish. The message being conveyed is the amphibious nature of the symbolism. The Goat/fish is more to the point because it conveys the abyss and the heights in one connected symbol; but this is compensated for in Vedic/Hindu tradition by the Gods allotted to each sign/symbol: Varuna in the case of Makar, the God whose vahana in fact is a makar? If you read Sri Aurobindo’s description of Varun in his psycho-spiritual reading of the Rig Veda, The Secret of the Veda, there can be no doubt about the correspondence. I repeat, if these gentlemen do not know zodiacal lore, how can they even enter into a discussion with me? Though they do, each of their coments makes clear to readers the very point I am making: THIS IS A KNOWLEDGE NOW LOST IN INDIA. Therefore they go on endlessly with their respective ayanamshas, none of which can be effectively applied They are all speculative. They are relative, each one basing their calculations on points of reference that have no meaning, no stability and objectivity and vallidity TODAY: they are based on subjective surmises that takes us nowhere near the true way. My point: the Knowledge (veda) is lost. Let us engage in the POSITIVE exercise of re-instating what the ancients knew, and what has been preserved (as a strategy during passage through the Dark Age) in the Hindu Temple, where there is zodiacal lore everywhere. But if one does not know what to look for – well, then we have a problem!
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tim wrote:
harimalla wrote:
tim wrote:
Where is the mention of the details of the three perspetctives? Hari Malla
Hari, May I call you Hari? The details of the three perspectives are taken from the opening of The Gnostic Circle. I remember when I first read the passage I was awestruck. I think I stayed on the same page for a day without reading on due to being frozen like a kid at a fireworks display. Very simple I suppose but so elegant… I agree that there is tremendous power in perspective. The first chapter describe the Essential Purpose of the stidy of the Cosmic Harmonies. The approach I described was certainly not something I made up. It was borrowed liberally from TGC in the section detailing The Goal. These few passages spun my head around… Not sure if you have The Gnostic Circle but that volume contains pearls that would be worth reading. All the best, Tim
Dear Tim,
Please call me just Hari.
I am happy it is in the Gnostic circle. I have read the Gnostic circle as posted in one of these mails of Madame Thea. It is the longitudinal globe map with India at its proper longitude and taking Greenwich as the zero point..This appearred awkward to me since Greenwich being a human agreed zero point, has no value as a universal or natural bench marking. Perhaps i am not right since i have not read the actual Gnostic circle. So you may have to guide me a little.
Hope you have read one recent mail of madame Lori addressed to me. In this she has given the live drawing and meaning of Earth moon barycenter. Do you think we can correlate the solar , lunar and earth perspectives coordinated by this concept of Earth-Moon barycenter.? It could be very interesting if you agree to give a little attention to the barycentral viewpoint as the integration of the other three view points..thank you,
Hari Malla
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lori wrote:
I’ve been following this important ACC discussion this past week, mulling over the posts, trying to understand, integrate and such. I’d like to thank all who are participating in this forum topic, which is very revealing and educational. Hari Malla your comments have perplexed me quite a bit. I feel like I enter a maze when I read your posts. You speak of yoga and harmonies and marriage between Shiva-Shakti, Earth-Moon and such but the tone that comes through is duality, not unity. I get the impression from your ideas about the EM barycenter of the Earth-Moon that you have yet to understand/comprehend the Vedic realization of the One, or the Divine Flame Agni at the heart or core of each Individual Being. Hence for you, it seems entirely plausible that the real center which creates our consciousness is located at the barycenter created by the dance between the Earth and the Moon which itself moves about as Robert wrote, because ‘the distribution of Mass is not a constant value’. It also needs to be noted that ‘The point [barycentre] is also continually moving longitudinally within the Earth as the Earth performs its daily axial rotation and the Moon performs its regular 360 degree observed orbit around the Earth.’ Essentially the barycenter is a point of BALANCE between two or more objects. The problem when trying to make this balance point the CENTER of consciousness is that it is, in essence EMPTY. It is not the Hiraṇyagarbha (‘golden womb’ or ‘golden egg’) of our existence. This point did not create the Earth and it did not create the Moon. It is not in any way a point of origin or source or creation. It is a gravitational phenomenon resulting from the Earth and Moon’s independent yet intertwined existence. To equate this balance point with the Purusha and hence with Agni and the center of the Vedic Sacrifice (i.e. Year) is a serious error in judgement. It is preposterous from the point of Higher Knowledge. The barycenter of two or more Individual beings (whoever or where ever they may be) does not constitute the immobile center/divine flame from which order arises. You have lost the plot on this one. The BALANCE point of the barycenter is akin in the Zodiac to the Libra cardinal point (whose symbol is a balancing scale). Students of the Supramental Cosmology will be able to appreciate your comments in light of this stage of the zodiac in which the Balance and Harmony which is adhered to is not yet the True Thing. It is base on the Void (which infers a void of knowledge) where there is a shattering of consciousness and the Mind begins to go increasingly out from the center towards the external surround into increasingly fragmented and fragmenting patterns and manifestations of thought (the plight of our modern world). From this Void in consciousness, words begin to lose their meaning, because the real center of the manifestation (creation) is lost and people begin to make up their own meaning and interpretations (as if Truth was relative … not based on anything stable/concrete as the Vedic Rishi’s conveyed in the concept of Skambha). Hence in our Modern age, one can speak of high Vedic concepts or symbols and have no real connection to the POINT or the Oneness from which these Vedic concepts and symbols arise. This is what you seem to be doing Hari Malla. Trying to find a balance and a harmony between different systems of science, religion and yoga, but this approach is doomed to failure. It is off-center and ‘half-baked’ in terms of the evolution of consciousness and in terms of all that remains to be seen and known. All your imaginative slant does is add another interminable maze to the confusion the world population is already thoroughly mired in. The work of Thea and Aeon Centre of Cosmology is intended to draw people out of such mazes. Yourself included if willing. You write that Thea is ‘lost in the maze of Time’ but you would do well to reconsider who is lost. There is the possibility of revelation at hand, wherein the hopelessly hollow judgements an opinions of the Egoic Mind, give way to higher knowledge (Sagittarius) pointing the way to the birth of the True Centre in our consciousness (Capricorn). Anyone who has read and truly comprehended Thea’s books The Gnostic Circle and The Magical Carousel knows that your opinion regarding Thea being lost in Time is the very opposite of the truth. She comprehends the Time-Spirit and its past, present and future movements better than anyone else alive and has demonstrated how it informs evolution and manifestation. Any one who has read and truly comprehended her books can clearly see where your consciousness has become stuck or calcified in Time, like an artefact from the past. Your position can be easily plotted out (found or put in its place) on the map of Time. You live in the present with us, but your consciousness is ‘barycentered’ somewhere the past … lagging behind the present moment in time. You do not take into account at all the supramental and all-harmonizing knowledge that has been introduced by Sri Aurobindo, the Mother and Thea since the beginning of the 20th century. They have brought forth a new manifestation of knowledge, knowledge necessary for our new age of Unity. There is a lot new to be learned Hari Malla, and you seem to be spending your time and energies standing as a guard or custodian of the past, intent on maintaining hollow ideas of harmonies, balance points, marriages, yogas, symbols, deities as well as of the zodiac, rather than using your time and energies to drop deeper into the common Point of our existence … into Agni’s seat wherein all Time and Space is contained and born. Once one approaches this seat of Gnosis, it becomes clear that Agni’s 12 month Earthly journey or ‘sacrifice’ cannot be a measure of the surrounding Space or Sky (constellations). The 12 month measure of Agni’s extension in Time and Space functions as the measure of the Purusha, the Cosmic Self, but this measure (as Agni himself) is self-born, self-contained, it is not established outside the Earth or outside the Individual. In addition to being ‘self-born’, Agni is said to be born of two sticks (Aranis), typically thought of as Earth and Heaven. It seems to me that these sticks are symbolic of not only Earth and Heaven, but of the two axes from which Agni and the Vedic Sacrifice is born, i.e. the two axes of the Solstices and the Equinoxes. The Earth’s symbol is a Cardinal Cross within a circle. Are we to believe that these two axes (sticks) of the Earth have nothing to do with Agni’s sacrificial year (i.e. the Zodiac)? It just seems so very upside-down and backwards to continue to insist that the Vedic Year/Zodiac is disconnected from the Earth’s own experience, from her own Geometries of Time as established by her very real axes (the Cardinal Cross) in Time and Space and as experienced by the Earth and her inhabitants. To assert that the Zodiac is about the movements of the constellations or the cosmic surround rather than the movements of LIFE/CONSCIOUSNESS on Earth, is an ongoing folly. This folly has been exposed via the yoga and writings of Thea and there is no going back, no crawling back into a time where this folly has not been thoroughly exposed. The cat is out of the bag. The Zodiac is an extension of Agni, of the One Self in all selves. It is established from the INSIDE, from the Centre of Being, extending out, not the other way around, not established externally. However Nirayani astrologers argue the point, it will not change the indwelling essence and structure of the Zodiac which is the measure or structure of Agni’s (our soul’s) journey in Time and Space. The Vedic Year and the Earth’s Tropical Year are one in the same. The Earth Herself is an exquisite womb of harmonies because Agni or the Divine Flame (the Immanent ‘Son’ of the Sun and of the Transcendent Divine) lies hidden in her Core. It is time for the world to begin to acknowledge and come to terms with this divine status and function of Mother Earth and a first step is to acknowledge and come to terms with the true measure of the Zodiac … the Earth’s measure. It’s quite a collosal step considering not only how many proceed to deny and trash Her Being in whatever subtle or not so subtle ways, but also considering how many are either attached to the Zodiac as being either something that Transcends the Earth’s own field of being or something that is an ignorant superstition that has nothing to do with anything at all important. Simply put, the Zodiac is Immanent within the Earth and hence Immanent within each Individual on it. It is a measure that is in us, a measure that is observed by the soul, even if not observed by the mind. I hope this becomes more and more obvious to readers.
Dear Madaame Lori,
i will try to touch upon a few of your points today. The EM barycenter does not rotate with the earth in the daily rotation of the earth. This point is always between the earth and the moon..It is heavier than both of them, siince it equals the total weight of the earth and the moon put together…This point is always moving in a smooth curve around the sun. The earth and the moonboth go in a zigzag path around this path.
The earth moon barycenter is experienced as our conscousness at the four cardinal points around the sun in the form of the four Avatars.. In the form of Rama we expericne it at the winter solstice or near it. In like manner the krishna Avatar is experienced at the vernal equinox, the Buddha avatar is experienced at the summer solstice and the integral yoga (Kalki avatar) is experienced at the autumn equinox.
You have mentioned about the movements of the constellations. Please remember that the contellations never move. It only appears to move due to our ignorance or the delusion of the earth makes it apparently moving. This is what we have to overcome by meditations. and developing the divine vision. The day we see the stars are not moving with our divine vision, we are said to be enlightened.
Integral yoga means the integration of the three types of yogas namely karma yoga, bhakti yoga and gyana yoga. Guru Aurobindo was able to combine these three types of yogas in ot one yoga and he called it as integral yoga. It is known as the Raja yoga i n our tradition..All these yogas are related with the realization of the earth moon barycenter. In fact incarnation itself means the sun which has been deputed at the earth moon barycenter. In Surya sidhanta this barycenter is called as the Suryamsha Purusha or the deputed portion of the sun. Hope more has been clarified. Thank you for the interest.
Hari Malla
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devinder wrote:
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
Devinder,
I have no clue what you are saying… yet when I concentrate on what others have written here they express a coherence and clarity which is lacking in your expression. The tone and delivery of your messages are reminiscent of a certain disruptive and rebellious student in geometry class who does not follow the lesson but needs desperately to win attention. So he vies to get noticed and in his attempt to wrest authority by being “cool” it back fires. That “certain student in geometry” would be me.
I have no argument for you because I can’t understand what you are saying. JC is an accomplished student and was pointing out to you, and I would add she has correctly pointed out, that you come across as disrespectful, biligerent and inchorehent. Perhaps my opinion is not “fact” but I would wager that it is unanimous. As far as discovering the PROOFS in this work you will need to do your lessons first. Do your homework. Every question you’ve launched is answered fully in the body of PNBs texts. Instead you blabber on about nothing. And then you come back here and insult the fine people I am trying to learn from.
Ciao,
Tim
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Dear Tim,
Why don’t you try the questions raised and answer straight way and not run away from the questions because it challenges the framework you have been living for so many days.
Obviously if you can’rt understand the questions and the discussion, you are yet to grow in your pursuits and are just living in an aura created by such spiritual awakenings that don’t have any “FACTUAL” value if are not well supported logically and academically.
On the real truth, I am helping you people to realize where you are totally wrong.
The behaviors of most of you is changed from “Dear Devinder” to “Devinder” in one or two posts. I am known to live amidst all these oppositions, and I actually ENJOY all these outbursts since it is like half the truth won without doing anything.
Personally, I don’t have any issues with any of you and not even your understanding of cosmology. In reality, cosmology is cosmology and we can understand it right or wrong.
My contention is simple “Either live with your ideas independent of specifying/ relating it to vedas or else provide FACUTAL support how it is related to vedas. Until then, it all remains a standalone thing.
Insead of writing the nonsense, have guts to participate in the real discussion and find answers to my questions. If you think questions have been answered, provide reference where they have been answered instead of writing “I think so.”… No assertions please, answer to the point.
regds
Devinder
tim wrote:
devinder wrote:
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
Devinder, I have no clue what you are saying… yet when I concentrate on what others have written here they express a coherence and clarity which is lacking in your expression. The tone and delivery of your messages are reminiscent of a certain disruptive and rebellious student in geometry class who does not follow the lesson but needs desperately to win attention. So he vies to get noticed and in his attempt to wrest authority by being “cool” it back fires. That “certain student in geometry” would be me. I have no argument for you because I can’t understand what you are saying. JC is an accomplished student and was pointing out to you, and I would add she has correctly pointed out, that you come across as disrespectful, biligerent and inchorehent. Perhaps my opinion is not “fact” but I would wager that it is unanimous. As far as discovering the PROOFS in this work you will need to do your lessons first. Do your homework. Every question you’ve launched is answered fully in the body of PNBs texts. Instead you blabber on about nothing. And then you come back here and insult the fine people I am trying to learn from. Ciao, Tim
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Dear all,
Summing up,
Reply to Mr. Arinaya and unattended part:
P1) Here also you have agreed that vedas don’t specify 25920 years. Why don’t you write details of what is your understanding of Vedic Maths rather than getting emotional on this? 360 days are 360 spokes, what does 9 has to do with this? And if you are still hell bound on 9, why 9? Why just 25920?, even 27000, 36000 are also divisible by 9?
P2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
P3) RV 1.154 –
2-Wild beast was referred Lion by not Sri Aurobindo but by Wilson in his translation in 1854 AD that also rendered to Sayana and only in comments.
3-Same Wilson did not specify Bull for Vrshne. It is only Griffith who specified Bull…. actually Bull is out of sync in the whole verse.. It is not Vrishabh…..Bur VrshNe i.e. “showerer”
5-The third part “Priya” is totally out of sync as all the translators have rightly commented it as “the well loved” ….If at all someone is lookout for “Friend”, it could be “Bandhu” …….. Now aligning Bandhu to Aquarius since 11th sign is for friendship is all imagination to align the wrongly understood Bull in 3) above…… and what abt Scorpio?
For benefit of everyone, I am refreshing your memories so that questions raised to Madam Thea are answered point to point rather than creating a loopback that serves no purpose at all to anybody.
Q1) “By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and when vedas were there before Christ era… …. these numbers can never represent vedic era. To simplify, we never had January, February in vedic times with January having 31 days etc…etc…
You have not yet answered the second question, I repost
Q2) Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
On symbol of capricorn, you have not yet understood the question and hasting to conclude that I don’t know about cardinal points and symbols.
So, I repost question 3 as you have not still answered
Q3) Where do you find symbol of capricorn in vedas? Please provide verse number from vedas.
You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question
Q4) What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
I would again reiterate where I began my last post “In an academic and logical discussion, one has to be focussed. I proposed in the beginning “Either present your understandign of cosmology independent of vedas or align it properly.”
So, would you please answer the real stuff.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
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harimalla wrote:
Dear Arinayaji, Please understand that the Rishis are saying “they shake not” for the steller world of sun and the stars and not to the earth’s solstices and equinoxes. The Vedas says “Give up the world for the sake of Atma.” Here. the ‘world’ means the earth. Atma means the world of the unmoving Sun and the stars. Integral yoga means nothing but this only. We calculate Yoga in our Panchanga by adding the speed of the sun to the speed of the stars ( Nakshyatra). This is the practical mathematics of Intergral yoga. The Integration means the intergration of the day caused by the sun and the night of the stars. Can you please integrate the day to the night in this fashion? The day you can do that you have achieved the goal of Intergral yoga. Be sure of that. This means you should visualize the sun and the stars simultaneously, situated in one space of the universe..Then you have achieved the goal of Integral Yoga. Karma yoga is represented by the story of Rama, the seventh Avatar and experienced at the winter solstice. Bhaktiyoga by the story of Krishna of eighth incarnationan experienced at the spring equinox.. Gyana yoga by the story of Buddha, the ninth incarnation, experienced at the summer solstice. Intergral yoga is the integration of these three types of yogas and is traditionally called as Raja yoga and represented by the story of Kalki avatar, the tenth incarnation of God, who brings the Staya yuga or the Golden age….It is experienced at the Autumn equinox. These four Avatars moving in sequence as Satya yuga, treta yuga, dwapar yuga and kali yuga revolves around the sun at the four cardinal points and this dynamic motion is represented by the Swastika symbol. It is achieved in one person’s life time. This is also indicated by the story of Rohita, the son of Harish chandara. Are these facts palatable to you? Please do not say “the stars whirl but the earth’s solstices and equinoxes are fixed.” You are interpreting things upside down from against the reality as accepted by science and also common sense…Thank you, Hari Malla
Dear Hariji,
It is interesting to see the points of contact and the points of divergence between our views. Actually the Rishi is saying that the 360 “pegs” do not shake in the least. It is the wheel itself that is fixed, and singular (one wheel). To see how this wheel might be anchored to the cycles of Earth-time, picture the Dawn, Ushas. The Dawn occurs when the dark and light are equally balanced, and forms something like a point of reference, or an eternal moment, that the consciousness can use to orient itself.
In terms of the Year, the Dawn corresponds to the Vernal Equinox, when again the dark and the light are equally balanced. Can you tell me, at what fixed point on the sidereal circle the days and nights are of equal length?
This is all I mean by the equinoxes are “fixed”. They always correspond, by definition, to the moment when the day and the night are of equal length (just like the Dawn). They are “fixed” to the moments in time when the day and the night are equal.
Today we have forgotten how to see the cosmos from a geocentric perspective. The Sun and stars are not “fixed”, they whirl constantly about the Earth. The Earth is solid, stable, unmoving (in the Vedic worldview, prithivi is the principle of stability).
I believe you are mistaken when you say that the Veda says “Give up the world for the sake of Atma.” Can you tell me what passage you had in mind? What the Veda says is carry through the yajna to the ninth/tenth month, conquor the panis, release the power of the hidden Sun, and enter into the Vast, the Right, the Truth (the fourth world, swar or mahas). But it also says that it is the Days and the Months themselves that lead us to this apotheosis—in other words, it occurs on Earth, not elsewhere.
All ten Avatars form a parable of evolution. I don’t think you can reduce it to the trimarga without losing everything. Rama incarnated the ideal of the sattwic man, Krishna of the overmental superman, and Sri Aurobindo came to establish the Supermind as a permanent feature of the Earth consciousness. What the Buddha represents in the progression is not a step forward from the 8th stage, but a return to an earlier stage. What he initiated was an exaggerated development of the rational mind and a tendency to fly away from the Earth-centered perspective.
The goal of the integral yoga is not to “see the sun and the stars at the same time”, it is to realize the Divine consciousness on every plane of our being (including the most material physical) and to prepare the human adhara and the world at large for the supramental descent and manifestation. The goal of the Vedic yajna seems similar in almost every respect, although they did not speak so much about the possibility of a collective realisation of the Supermind / swar / mahas. Still, the contours of the “journey” were all laid out in vivid detail. It was a realisation of the Earth, for the Earth, on the Earth, in Earth-time.
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arinaya wrote:
harimalla wrote:
Dear Arinayaji, Please understand that the Rishis are saying “they shake not” for the steller world of sun and the stars and not to the earth’s solstices and equinoxes. The Vedas says “Give up the world for the sake of Atma.” Here. the ‘world’ means the earth. Atma means the world of the unmoving Sun and the stars. Integral yoga means nothing but this only. We calculate Yoga in our Panchanga by adding the speed of the sun to the speed of the stars ( Nakshyatra). This is the practical mathematics of Intergral yoga. The Integration means the intergration of the day caused by the sun and the night of the stars. Can you please integrate the day to the night in this fashion? The day you can do that you have achieved the goal of Intergral yoga. Be sure of that. This means you should visualize the sun and the stars simultaneously, situated in one space of the universe..Then you have achieved the goal of Integral Yoga. Karma yoga is represented by the story of Rama, the seventh Avatar and experienced at the winter solstice. Bhaktiyoga by the story of Krishna of eighth incarnationan experienced at the spring equinox.. Gyana yoga by the story of Buddha, the ninth incarnation, experienced at the summer solstice. Intergral yoga is the integration of these three types of yogas and is traditionally called as Raja yoga and represented by the story of Kalki avatar, the tenth incarnation of God, who brings the Staya yuga or the Golden age….It is experienced at the Autumn equinox. These four Avatars moving in sequence as Satya yuga, treta yuga, dwapar yuga and kali yuga revolves around the sun at the four cardinal points and this dynamic motion is represented by the Swastika symbol. It is achieved in one person’s life time. This is also indicated by the story of Rohita, the son of Harish chandara. Are these facts palatable to you? Please do not say “the stars whirl but the earth’s solstices and equinoxes are fixed.” You are interpreting things upside down from against the reality as accepted by science and also common sense…Thank you, Hari Malla
Dear Hariji, It is interesting to see the points of contact and the points of divergence between our views. Actually the Rishi is saying that the 360 “pegs” do not shake in the least. It is the wheel itself that is fixed, and singular (one wheel). To see how this wheel might be anchored to the cycles of Earth-time, picture the Dawn, Ushas. The Dawn occurs when the dark and light are equally balanced, and forms something like a point of reference, or an eternal moment, that the consciousness can use to orient itself. In terms of the Year, the Dawn corresponds to the Vernal Equinox, when again the dark and the light are equally balanced. Can you tell me, at what fixed point on the sidereal circle the days and nights are of equal length? This is all I mean by the equinoxes are “fixed”. They always correspond, by definition, to the moment when the day and the night are of equal length (just like the Dawn). They are “fixed” to the moments in time when the day and the night are equal. Today we have forgotten how to see the cosmos from a geocentric perspective. The Sun and stars are not “fixed”, they whirl constantly about the Earth. The Earth is solid, stable, unmoving (in the Vedic worldview, prithivi is the principle of stability). I believe you are mistaken when you say that the Veda says “Give up the world for the sake of Atma.” Can you tell me what passage you had in mind? What the Veda says is carry through the yajna to the ninth/tenth month, conquor the panis, release the power of the hidden Sun, and enter into the Vast, the Right, the Truth (the fourth world, swar or mahas). But it also says that it is the Days and the Months themselves that lead us to this apotheosis—in other words, it occurs on Earth, not elsewhere. All ten Avatars form a parable of evolution. I don’t think you can reduce it to the trimarga without losing everything. Rama incarnated the ideal of the sattwic man, Krishna of the overmental superman, and Sri Aurobindo came to establish the Supermind as a permanent feature of the Earth consciousness. What the Buddha represents in the progression is not a step forward from the 8th stage, but a return to an earlier stage. What he initiated was an exaggerated development of the rational mind and a tendency to fly away from the Earth-centered perspective. The goal of the integral yoga is not to “see the sun and the stars at the same time”, it is to realize the Divine consciousness on every plane of our being (including the most material physical) and to prepare the human adhara and the world at large for the supramental descent and manifestation. The goal of the Vedic yajna seems similar in almost every respect, although they did not speak so much about the possibility of a collective realisation of the Supermind / swar / mahas. Still, the contours of the “journey” were all laid out in vivid detail. It was a realisation of the Earth, for the Earth, on the Earth, in Earth-time.
Dear Arinayaji,
Would you say the sun moves around the earth.? If not, then let us say the earth ,moves around the sun forming the four cardinal points around the sun. These four cardinal points also move on the background of the stars by precession in a long time. The sun is only one of the stars, and vitually , the stars are fixed with respect to the sun. This is what modern day science says.
If you cannot say this then let us not waste our time like a studdent of science talking to an ignorant villager..
thankyou,
Hari Malla
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I expected to move out of this discussion, having said my piece already, but statements by our Nirayani friends are too stimulating to let pass. But, I repeat, if one is not initiated into these mysteries, one cannot recognise anything deeper than what Devinder and Hari Malla seek to establish. In this light, I will further confirm the importance of the 10th sign Capricorn/Makar for the Rishi. The victory of the Aryan Warrior is held to be in the 10th month, which is the 10th sign from the March equinox.
Where does the 10th sign figure? In the Rig Veda it is more subtle because Sanskrit is the perfect language to hide the deeper mysteries from the profane. There are two or more levels to Sanskrit, and by consequent many different ways of translating. This is why one has to rely on the guidance of a recognised Seer, not just a Sanskrit pundit.
That apart, the easiest way to learn of those connections and the precise meaning of the symbols because they are then given overtly, is to study the architecture and iconography that was formulated during the Puranic Age in the effort to preserve that higher knowledge when Bharat was being invaded by antagonistic forces. The temple would secure that worship would go on, and the symbolism would be carried over to the time of the appearance of the 9th Avatar (not Gautam the Buddha!). It is for this reason that these mysteries are being unveiled today.
Iconography itself confirms my reading of Ganga. I use our contemporary coordinates of longitude and latitude to ‘locate’ Ganga on the body of Bharat Mata. What is the crime in doing so, Mr Devinder? Shouldn’t you rejoice at the very idea that this could be done? But don’t take my word for it. We have iconography to confirm what I arrived at through initiation and not through reading the scriptures. I referred to Varuna and hisvahana Makar to prove the composite symbolism of Goat/Fish; (if you want to know the connection, please refer to my published work The New Way 2); trust me, it is there, clear and explicit.
I have also measured Ganga via the same Capricorn symbol and found her source to be at 12 degrees Capricorn, or when converted to days it is the 3rd of January. Her mouths are located at 0 degree Capricorn (the Makar Sankranti of the solar calendar). I therefore sometimes refer to her as the River of January, also because of her connection with Jahnu. She was following Bhagirath in her descent on Earth and when they reached the ashram of the sage Jahnu (janveri, January?), she flooded it and put our the sacrificial fire! Jahnu then cursed her and swallowed her up!
Superstitious nonsense? Not so, my friends, but only if you know these explicit zodiacal connections, unknown to contemporary astrologers in India, but not to those of earlier times or abroad On that basis we remove once again the taint of superstition that the West and its Abrahamic culture throws on Hinduism. This is easily done when we know thatCapricorn is ruled by Saturn which in turn rules the EARS in the body! How sweetly the zodiacal content is preserved.
This rulership is common knowledge, it is not my invention. But we find it in India only in myths today.
So, we have confirmed from the myths the Capricorn essence of Ganga; and Thea has discovered her Earthly physical location, as well as temporal. And naturally Ganga’s vahanaalso confirms Capricorn/Makar, for it is none other than a makar! And here she is descending from the celestial sphere on her most precious makar…
Gangadevi on Makar
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Here’s the mythological connection between Ganga, Jahnavi (i.e. January and Capricorn) and the Ear:
…. ‘[Siva] released [Ganga] through his hair. Then Ganga came with such force, and it flowed through the Ashrama of a sage called Jahnu. He was so angry he simply took the Ganga and swallowed it. Then Bhagiratha prayed to Jahnu, “Please release it.” Then he released it through the ear. Because it [Ganga] came out of the ear of Jahnu Rishi, she is called Jahnavi. Then it flowed, and it flowed through the ashes of the ancestors and then they were liberated.’ – from ‘The Story of the Descent of Ganga to Earth’ by Swami Krishnananda
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thea wrote:
I expected to move out of this discussion, having said my piece already, but statements by our Nirayani friends are too stimulating to let pass. But, I repeat, if one is not initiated into these mysteries, one cannot recognise anything deeper than what Devinder and Hari Malla seek to establish. In this light, I will further confirm the importance of the 10th sign Capricorn/Makar for the Rishi. The victory of the Aryan Warrior is held to be in the 10th month, which is the 10th sign from the March equinox. Where does the 10th sign figure? In the Rig Veda it is more subtle because Sanskrit is the perfect language to hide the deeper mysteries from the profane. There are two or more levels to Sanskrit, and by consequent many different ways of translating. This is why one has to rely on the guidance of a recognised Seer, not just a Sanskrit pundit. That apart, the easiest way to learn of those connections and the precise meaning of the symbols because they are then given overtly, is to study the architecture and iconography that was formulated during the Puranic Age in the effort to preserve that higher knowledge when Bharat was being invaded by antagonistic forces. The temple would secure that worship would go on, and the symbolism would be carried over to the time of the appearance of the 9th Avatar (not Gautam the Buddha!). It is for this reason that these mysteries are being unveiled today. Iconography itself confirms my reading of Ganga. I use our contemporary coordinates of longitude and latitude to ‘locate’ Ganga on the body of Bharat Mata. What is the crime in doing so, Mr Devinder? Shouldn’t you rejoice at the very idea that this could be done? But don’t take my word for it. We have iconography to confirm what I arrived at through initiation and not through reading the scriptures. I referred to Varuna and his vahana Makar to prove the composite symbolism of Goat/Fish; (if you want to know the connection, please refer to my published work The New Way 2); trust me, it is there, clear and explicit. I have also measured Ganga via the same Capricorn symbol and found her source to be at 12 degrees Capricorn, or when converted to days it is the 3rd of January. Her mouths are located at 0 degree Capricorn (the Makar Sankranti of the solar calendar). I therefore sometimes refer to her as the River of January, also because of her connection with Jahnu. She was following Bhagirath in her descent on Earth and when they reached the ashram of the sage Jahnu (janveri, January?), she flooded it and put our the sacrificial fire! Jahnu then cursed her and swallowed her up! Superstitious nonsense? Not so, my friends, but only if you know these explicit zodiacal connections, unknown to contemporary astrologers in India, but not to those of earlier times or abroad On that basis we remove once again the taint of superstition that the West and its Abrahamic culture throws on Hinduism. This is easily done when we know that Capricorn is ruled by Saturn which in turn rules the EARS in the body! How sweetly the zodiacal content is preserved. This rulership is common knowledge, it is not my invention. But we find it in India only in myths today. So, we have confirmed from the myths the Capricorn essence of Ganga; and Thea has discovered her Earthly physical location, as well as temporal. And naturally Ganga’s vahana also confirms Capricorn/Makar, for it is none other than a makar! And here she is descending from the celestial sphere on her most precious makar… Gangadevi on Makar
Dear Madame Theaji,
Kindly explain the meaning of Ganga. Is it the river in India or the heavelny Ganga or Akash Ganga which means the Milky way,? Have you not said she has descended from the celestial sphere on her Makar. ? Then after that we can easily explain about Makar and Makar sankranti , wether it is sayan or nirayan. Please remember nirayan means steller. Is millky way not steller?
I have no problem if you let the Gregorian calendar remain tropical even after including the lunar dates to it, for which i have repeatedly requested your kind self, but importing the tropical concept into Hinduism is clearly inappropriate..
I have also asked, if permissible to ask, in another of your blogs, about your wonderful experience in 1972. Was the goldern red sun you experienced moving or stationery while you experienced it?
Thank you,
Hari Malla
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lori wrote:
Here’s the mythological connection between Ganga, Jahnavi (i.e. January and Capricorn) and the Ear: …. ‘[Siva] released [Ganga] through his hair. Then Ganga came with such force, and it flowed through the Ashrama of a sage called Jahnu. He was so angry he simply took the Ganga and swallowed it. Then Bhagiratha prayed to Jahnu, “Please release it.” Then he released it through the ear. Because it [Ganga] came out of the ear of Jahnu Rishi, she is called Jahnavi. Then it flowed, and it flowed through the ashes of the ancestors and then they were liberated.’ – from ‘The Story of the Descent of Ganga to Earth’ by Swami Krishnananda
Dear madame Lori,
Thank you for the explanation of the story. Do you also not think Ganga is the circle of zodiac stars? So, is travelling around heaven of stars not our salvaion? Does Ganga or Akash ganga( milky way) not wash away our attachment to or sins of the earthly world. When Shiva holds Ganga upon his matted hair , it is equal to the enlightenement or the knowledge of Buddha too or Sahasrar (thousand petalled) chakra. This same concept of a thounsad years or stars is also called as the concept of the milleniium in Christianity.
So is our time keeping not based upon the star background? Kindly be honest. The reason i am asking you this is because a great person like madame Theaji is trying to import the Christian or Jewish sayan( tropical) concept into Hinduism. She does not care about Christianity which has given up the spiritually necessary lunar dates. How can we think of the New way or new world order with such biased opinion and indiscrimination?.
Thankyou,
Hari Malla
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Sorry, for some reason I left out the para about Jahnu releasing Ganga from his ear – the ears are ruled by Saturn, in turn ruler of Makar/Capricorn.
No, Hari Malla, I consider that ‘heavenly’ Ganga refers to the ecliptic zodiac of 12 because Ganga is supremely related TO EARTH. For me she is like a sister – that is, she is a Being. If you project those 12 out into the constellations, that’s fine. It is the way we do it to ‘read’ the precessional movement and to determine the particular Age and Manifestation we are in. But that measurement is always determined by the ecliptic plane – i.e., our solar system.We remove the label of superstition when we can MEASURE such elusive elements. However, this is not science, per se, it is s reckoning beyond science as you are expounding. Astronmers miss the plot because they must have something PHYSICAL to measure: they look to the stars and try to accommodate the zodiacal figures within those wholly arbitrary child’s play of connecting the dots. But you must admit that it does not work because those ‘dots’ cover far more than 30 degrees. Yet Nirayana astrologers will continue to regard the Nakshatras which they read in the constellations as one sign of 30.
Astronomers want something tangible like the stars that they can see physically. They are only interested in the physical plane. All else then become superstition to them. This is the enormous harm they hjave done to the Sanatana Dharma. The sage looks within to find the subtle content of the cosmic harmony. I know this is true because I have done it. Everything single discovery I have made – and you have to admit that there have been many – was ‘seen’ within. That is where we discover HARMONY. Otherwise, it is no longer cosmos (order) but simply chaos.
The tropical zodiac of the ecliptic does not have stars to reveal its existence. It has the Vedic Journey through the 12 stages. If you follow that journey of 12 with its cardinal corners, you reach what for the Seers is ‘tangible’, you enter the subtle plane. You RREALISE those symbols, you experience them, thereby bringing them out of the realm of even a hint of otherworldliness, much less superstition. Then there can be no doubt which system to follow.
We have been carrying on this debate for a while; we have each expounded our theories, ideas, and experiences. As you can see, no one has been convinced of the other’s position. This is to be expected because of the approach, as I describe it above. Therefore, while I enjoy the discussion, I realise that the only gain is to have brought into the public domain a serious, in-depth discussion of the two distinct approaches. The reader then decides which path he or she vibrates most to. In this light we have done a service to seekers across the world.
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Hari Mala, if you read my autobiographical study, The Tenth Day of Victory, Volumes 1 and 2, you can come to appreciate my position more clearly. There were two connected realisations: one was the apparently STATIC experience of the Supramental Sun. This was in May of 1972. The next, related to the first, added precisely DYNAMISM to the realisation. In terms of your approach that second experience would have been equivalent to the Brhaman Consciousness that is well known in Indian Yogas. The signature is an immense silence that covers everything, to the extent that you wish even to cease breathing so as not to disturb anything because it is ALL a perfection. In other Yogas that is the be-all and end-all. You stop there are establish an Ashram and pass that realisaiton on to others.
Of course that was not Sri Aurobindo’s Yoga, either Integral or Supramental. The key to the latter is DYNAMISM. There is no Supermind without dynamism. Itis the only way to reconcile the paradoxes, especially to integrate Being and Becoming as a LIVED experience. Sri Aurobindo has explained this thoroughly in his writings on the subject. And since I was being guided by the Mother very carefully in those early stages (she was still with us then), I was not allowed to remain in that state for long. I had to move on. Then statics entered its dynamic phase. All my work came out of that dynamism. I realised the paucity of the static and that if one wanted to know God and the Goddess on this planet it would have to be a dynamic realisation. It was then in September of 1972 that Number became ALIVE. All the rest followed…
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Madam Thea,
Would you please answer the real questions instead of creating a web to confuse others so that no one ask questions next timne. This is very old trick. If you run away from questions, you don’t even help yourself. I have already summed up everything in previous psot yesterday and I expect straight answers.
To add one more thing to that sum up, “Varuna is God of water and related to evening, Mitra is opposite to it at dawn. So, how do you justify it in your understanding of Mitra as Aquarius and Varuna as Capricorn when both are at opposite plane, dawn and dusk as per veda”. This is Question 5, Q5 for you.
Once real discussion starts with real answers, I would explain that also “Shake not the least” that Dear Arinaya is quoting a lot in every post.
Awaiting answers to 5 questions to you and three points unattended with Mr. Arinaya.
regds
Devinder
thea wrote:
I expected to move out of this discussion, having said my piece already, but statements by our Nirayani friends are too stimulating to let pass. But, I repeat, if one is not initiated into these mysteries, one cannot recognise anything deeper than what Devinder and Hari Malla seek to establish. In this light, I will further confirm the importance of the 10th sign Capricorn/Makar for the Rishi. The victory of the Aryan Warrior is held to be in the 10th month, which is the 10th sign from the March equinox. Where does the 10th sign figure? In the Rig Veda it is more subtle because Sanskrit is the perfect language to hide the deeper mysteries from the profane. There are two or more levels to Sanskrit, and by consequent many different ways of translating. This is why one has to rely on the guidance of a recognised Seer, not just a Sanskrit pundit. That apart, the easiest way to learn of those connections and the precise meaning of the symbols because they are then given overtly, is to study the architecture and iconography that was formulated during the Puranic Age in the effort to preserve that higher knowledge when Bharat was being invaded by antagonistic forces. The temple would secure that worship would go on, and the symbolism would be carried over to the time of the appearance of the 9th Avatar (not Gautam the Buddha!). It is for this reason that these mysteries are being unveiled today. Iconography itself confirms my reading of Ganga. I use our contemporary coordinates of longitude and latitude to ‘locate’ Ganga on the body of Bharat Mata. What is the crime in doing so, Mr Devinder? Shouldn’t you rejoice at the very idea that this could be done? But don’t take my word for it. We have iconography to confirm what I arrived at through initiation and not through reading the scriptures. I referred to Varuna and his vahana Makar to prove the composite symbolism of Goat/Fish; (if you want to know the connection, please refer to my published work The New Way 2); trust me, it is there, clear and explicit. I have also measured Ganga via the same Capricorn symbol and found her source to be at 12 degrees Capricorn, or when converted to days it is the 3rd of January. Her mouths are located at 0 degree Capricorn (the Makar Sankranti of the solar calendar). I therefore sometimes refer to her as the River of January, also because of her connection with Jahnu. She was following Bhagirath in her descent on Earth and when they reached the ashram of the sage Jahnu (janveri, January?), she flooded it and put our the sacrificial fire! Jahnu then cursed her and swallowed her up! Superstitious nonsense? Not so, my friends, but only if you know these explicit zodiacal connections, unknown to contemporary astrologers in India, but not to those of earlier times or abroad On that basis we remove once again the taint of superstition that the West and its Abrahamic culture throws on Hinduism. This is easily done when we know that Capricorn is ruled by Saturn which in turn rules the EARS in the body! How sweetly the zodiacal content is preserved. This rulership is common knowledge, it is not my invention. But we find it in India only in myths today. So, we have confirmed from the myths the Capricorn essence of Ganga; and Thea has discovered her Earthly physical location, as well as temporal. And naturally Ganga’s vahana also confirms Capricorn/Makar, for it is none other than a makar! And here she is descending from the celestial sphere on her most precious makar… Gangadevi on Makar
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thea wrote:
Sorry, for some reason I left out the para about Jahnu releasing Ganga from his ear – the ears are ruled by Saturn, in turn ruler of Makar/Capricorn. No, Hari Malla, I consider that ‘heavenly’ Ganga refers to the ecliptic zodiac of 12 because Ganga is supremely related TO EARTH. For me she is like a sister – that is, she is a Being. If you project those 12 out into the constellations, that’s fine. It is the way we do it to ‘read’ the precessional movement and to determine the particular Age and Manifestation we are in. But that measurement is always determined by the ecliptic plane – i.e., our solar system.We remove the label of superstition when we can MEASURE such elusive elements. However, this is not science, per se, it is s reckoning beyond science as you are expounding. Astronmers miss the plot because they must have something PHYSICAL to measure: they look to the stars and try to accommodate the zodiacal figures within those wholly arbitrary child’s play of connecting the dots. But you must admit that it does not work because those ‘dots’ cover far more than 30 degrees. Yet Nirayana astrologers will continue to regard the Nakshatras which they read in the constellations as one sign of 30. Astronomers want something tangible like the stars that they can see physically. They are only interested in the physical plane. All else then become superstition to them. This is the enormous harm they hjave done to the Sanatana Dharma. The sage looks within to find the subtle content of the cosmic harmony. I know this is true because I have done it. Everything single discovery I have made – and you have to admit that there have been many – was ‘seen’ within. That is where we discover HARMONY. Otherwise, it is no longer cosmos (order) but simply chaos. The tropical zodiac of the ecliptic does not have stars to reveal its existence. It has the Vedic Journey through the 12 stages. If you follow that journey of 12 with its cardinal corners, you reach what for the Seers is ‘tangible’, you enter the subtle plane. You RREALISE those symbols, you experience them, thereby bringing them out of the realm of even a hint of otherworldliness, much less superstition. Then there can be no doubt which system to follow. We have been carrying on this debate for a while; we have each expounded our theories, ideas, and experiences. As you can see, no one has been convinced of the other’s position. This is to be expected because of the approach, as I describe it above. Therefore, while I enjoy the discussion, I realise that the only gain is to have brought into the public domain a serious, in-depth discussion of the two distinct approaches. The reader then decides which path he or she vibrates most to. In this light we have done a service to seekers across the world.
Dear madame Theaji and Devinder ji,
I am fond of you both. But both of you do not agree with me because I try to act like a bridge between both of you. This bridge is surely the New way. But some how both of you manage to slip away in the end form my genuine proposal..Devinder agrees that we need both sayan and nirayan. But he perhaps thinks it is not yet the time to reform because uttaryan has not reached Dhanu sankranti.. Madame Theaji does want to reform but by destroying the nirayan system of the Hindus for the future of Hinduism. Madame, please know that Parvati is the earth and Ganga is the star circle of zodiacs in heaven. Why can you not understand and accept such simple symbols. No madame, Ganga is not the earth and so is not your sister at all, since you hate the stars.. Ganga( star circle) was brought to the earth to coordinate the stars with mother Parvati or further to the east to the solar system. The golden red sun you have experienced is the sun rising in the east at the Bay of Bengal. When the stars experienced at the head ( by Shiva) is brought to the ocean of our sentiment at the heart( in the east as the sun ), this universe is unified. This is the true Integral Yoga ( Raja yoga) when knowledge of stars and the feelings of love and devotion in the heart ( sun) become one.. The sun, in the east, then is called as Vishwa mitra- World friendship. Please recall that the story of Ganga sagar is narrated by Vishwamitra to Ramachandra and Lakshman when he took them to maarry with Sitaji. Sitaji is truly the earth core since she was born of the earth and entered the earth in the end. SO perhaps you can call Sitaji as your sister!. Please be confirmed that Makar sankranti, the vehicle of Ganga ( circle of zodiac stars) is steller or sidereal. But the pole star, seat of Brahmaji who released Ganga water from his Kamandalu, is sayan or tropical. Trivikram( Vaman avatar) which represents the earth triangle took the second one of his three steps upto the Pole star in heaven, where Brahmaji was seated. Barahmaji washed his feet and preserved the water, to release it when time was ripe. He released it when requested by Bhagirath. SO we need both sidereal and tropical calendars in a coordinated fashion- pole star (Brahmaji) being sayan and the circle of zodiac stars( Ganga) being nirayan…
Thus, I say it is already time to reform our calendar, by shifitng one whole month of nirayan calendar as per the mananwaar system, by calling the present Dhanu sankranti as the future Makar sankranti in the sayan fashion. Madame Thea does not think Ganga is the star circle of zodiacs. But you are challenging the very definition of Akash Ganga.. Why both of you do not agree with me?, I am surprised even when we are so close together…i feel both of you are ignoring the lunar month( Shiva) and the lunar fluctuation zone. Madame does not think of the lunar month because she is brought up in the western system, Devinder does not realize that the vernal equinoctial full moon has shifted to Falgun purima from the original vernal equinoctial Chaitra purima zone. Will Hinduism be able to lead the world to new fronts as envisaged by Vivekanana, at this rate? I am starting to doubt. So my request plese quarrel not but compromise as the Vedas want us to do!
If this compromising atittude does not occur, let the materialistic Christians lead the world as they are already doing. Let the lunar based Islamic states keep upon hitting at them too with their unending Jihads.. This is the fate of our modern world since those who believe in the Vedas are quarrelsome people who never like to come to terms with reality and each other although theoritically, Vedas tried to harmonize all types of thougthts of humankind both sayan and nirayan with the help of lunar calendar…..
Thank you anyway,
Hari Malla
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My dear Hari Malla,
It is not that I run away from answering questions either from you or Devinder. It is simply that we approach these matters from very different angles. I explained that in an earlier post this morning. I think that much is absolutely clear. No need to repeat.
You state that I want to do away completely with the Nirayana system. Yes, certainly, as it is now formulated on the basis of Nakshatras and with multiple ayanamshas. I believe Devinder’s book on the subject has pages where he disputes each of them – to come up with his own, I suppose, the only correct one!
In dealing with these matters after the Supramental Manifestation, there cannot be such confusion. There cannot be many stable 0 Points. Only one. And more importantly, the sidereal circle where the 12 are projected cannot be used for individual horoscopy or temple timings. It is used as a backdrop for the Precessional movement wherein we note the passages of the Ages/Manifestation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian calendar or Hindu or Islamic, and on and on. You are all caught up in difference, divisions. You keep insisting (overtly or covertly) that I want to impose the so-called Christian-Gregorian calendar on poor Hindus who are once again bamboozled by white skin proselytisers! The calendar used throughout the ancient pagan world and simply reformed by Pope Gregory cannot be called Christian. But you insist, so…
Surely you all know that to calculate with utmost accuracy the true ayanamsha in the sidereal circle is a near impossibility. More to the point, it leaves astrology and cosmology open to unending disputes. You wish to end the disputes: Let us compromise, you ask. How can one compromise on something as essential as when to start reckoning time’s movement through the year and the Greater Years? There is no compromise possible. That is why I do not answer Devinder’s list of questions because for me they have absolutely no value at all. I will never convince him because of our different approaches, as I wrote earlier. Let him continue haggling with fellow Nirayanis over which is the ‘correct’ ayanamsha. I do not fit in with all of that.
Finally, you assume to know so much about the Integral Yoga. My Lord, this is really just too much. It is nothing like what you claim. My friend, we are not at all on the same wave length, much less the same path. But not for that are we enemies! However, I must correct you when you attribute to the New Way and the Integral and Supramental Yogas conditions which do not at all apply. My students are capable of instructing you on the differences, but I believe they have had enough by now. I wanted to have your views placed before the public as clearly as you and Devinder are able in this short space. This you both have done. My intention was not to allow you ANOTHER forum to continue the haggling that goes on among Nirayana astrologers who cannot agree on any ayanamsha. This has been achieved. You have revealed the contours of your systems. Now the readers can decide which makes sense and is applicable and which is not..
I must add that with my new system this argument does not arise: the Gnostic Circle is simply a wheel of Time. Nothing more. It consists of the circle of 9 superimposed on the circle of 12 – in other words, a diagrammatic expression of the constituent elements of our solar system. HARMONY is the keyword. You enter the wheel at birth and you move through it in cycles and experience in each round the Vedic Journey of the Rishis.
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Madam Thea,
Why are you giving up so easily. Come on, so many books under your name, you must have guts to answer. OR is it that you have understood that your ideas are not aligned to Vedas and there is no FACTUAL support in it.
In my sum up, there are 5 questions pending to you and 3 points unattended with Mr. Arinaya. You have tried to touch 1 or 2 issues indirectly in your post to Mr. Malla. I would certainly provide my inputs.
You wrote “I want to do away completely with the Nirayana system.”
My reply “Alas! you can not run away from the sky.”
You wrote “I believe Devinder’s book on the subject has pages where he disputes each of them – to come up with his own, I suppose, the only correct one!”
My reply “Yes, I have argued logically and academically. But unlike you, I am not forcing my ideas on anyone and open to logical/ academic arguments even now with broadmind. One must read the complete book to reach to any colclusion. Compared to your books, it is quite cheap. If you had priced one of your book like “The Gnostic Circle” at the similar price, I might have procured and argued with all inputs from you but even without reading it, I have understood that it is not aligned to vedas and lacks FACTUAL support in this regard.
You wrote “ It is used as a backdrop for the Precessional movement wherein we note the passages of the Ages/Manifestation. ”
My reply “Fair enough, but half knowledge is not right! so please provide your zero point for this since you are using this in your 12 manifestations and agreeing to a different zodiac”
You wrote “This has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian calendar or Hindu or Islamic, and on and on. ”
My reply “My dear madam, then why are you co-ordinating 2592 with the four birth dates specified in numbers of Gregorian calendar. If none of your students have questioned you on this, you are lucky till date. Obviously if you specify your birth date in Christian Calendar and then use numerology to indicate a number, it is BOGUS if claimed to have aligned to VEDAS and presented as FACTUAL support. Vedas did not have Christian Calendar. Any sincere student would have asked you this question by now. And even if they missed it, they have an opportunity now to ask you this question rather than getting emotional on this. ”
You wrote “That is why I do not answer Devinder’s list of questions because for me they have absolutely no value at all.”
My reply “all the five questions that you are not answering, are not related to ayanamsa. I can discuss these issues independent of predictive astrology any time any day. It is only the opposition that brings the issue of astrology again and again and seeks hiding in it.”
You wrote “I will never convince him because of our different approaches,”
My reply “Whatever approach you use, belongs to you. Issue is not the approach, issue is lack of FACTUAL support in relation to Vedas. So either provide Factual support in this regard or stop claiming your approach aligned to Vedas. Let it exist independently and I would still listen to your approach.”
You wrote “You enter the wheel at birth and you move through it in cycles and experience in each round the Vedic Journey of the Rishis.”
My reply “Even astrology states same in its own language but does not specify it as Vedic journey of the Rishis”
I have answered enough. Waiting answers to my questions and pending points.
regds
Devinder
thea wrote:
My dear Hari Malla, It is not that I run away from answering questions either from you or Devinder. It is simply that we approach these matters from very different angles. I explained that in an earlier post this morning. I think that much is absolutely clear. No need to repeat. You state that I want to do away completely with the Nirayana system. Yes, certainly, as it is now formulated on the basis of Nakshatras and with multiple ayanamshas. I believe Devinder’s book on the subject has pages where he disputes each of them – to come up with his own, I suppose, the only correct one! In dealing with these matters after the Supramental Manifestation, there cannot be such confusion. There cannot be many stable 0 Points. Only one. And more importantly, the sidereal circle where the 12 are projected cannot be used for individual horoscopy or temple timings. It is used as a backdrop for the Precessional movement wherein we note the passages of the Ages/Manifestation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian calendar or Hindu or Islamic, and on and on. You are all caught up in difference, divisions. You keep insisting (overtly or covertly) that I want to impose the so-called Christian-Gregorian calendar on poor Hindus who are once again bamboozled by white skin proselytisers! The calendar used throughout the ancient pagan world and simply reformed by Pope Gregory cannot be called Christian. But you insist, so… Surely you all know that to calculate with utmost accuracy the true ayanamsha in the sidereal circle is a near impossibility. More to the point, it leaves astrology and cosmology open to unending disputes. You wish to end the disputes: Let us compromise, you ask. How can one compromise on something as essential as when to start reckoning time’s movement through the year and the Greater Years? There is no compromise possible. That is why I do not answer Devinder’s list of questions because for me they have absolutely no value at all. I will never convince him because of our different approaches, as I wrote earlier. Let him continue haggling with fellow Nirayanis over which is the ‘correct’ ayanamsha. I do not fit in with all of that. Finally, you assume to know so much about the Integral Yoga. My Lord, this is really just too much. It is nothing like what you claim. My friend, we are not at all on the same wave length, much less the same path. But not for that are we enemies! However, I must correct you when you attribute to the New Way and the Integral and Supramental Yogas conditions which do not at all apply. My students are capable of instructing you on the differences, but I believe they have had enough by now. I wanted to have your views placed before the public as clearly as you and Devinder are able in this short space. This you both have done. My intention was not to allow you ANOTHER forum to continue the haggling that goes on among Nirayana astrologers who cannot agree on any ayanamsha. This has been achieved. You have revealed the contours of your systems. Now the readers can decide which makes sense and is applicable and which is not.. I must add that with my new system this argument does not arise: the Gnostic Circle is simply a wheel of Time. Nothing more. It consists of the circle of 9 superimposed on the circle of 12 – in other words, a diagrammatic expression of the constituent elements of our solar system. HARMONY is the keyword. You enter the wheel at birth and you move through it in cycles and experience in each round the Vedic Journey of the Rishis.
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Mr. Malla,
You wrote “Devinder agrees that we need both sayan and nirayan. But he perhaps thinks it is not yet the time to reform because uttaryan has not reached Dhanu sankranti.”
My reply “I would give my opinion at right time in right manner logically and academically. I don’t live on just imaginations. Only once fundamentals are grasped, one can imagine, visualize and propose.”
But whenever I provide an answer, apply your mind broadly to agree or disagree, the way you need to do even when reading my already released stuff.
regds
Devinder
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devinder wrote:
Mr. Malla, You wrote “Devinder agrees that we need both sayan and nirayan. But he perhaps thinks it is not yet the time to reform because uttaryan has not reached Dhanu sankranti.” My reply “I would give my opinion at right time in right manner logically and academically. I don’t live on just imaginations. Only once fundamentals are grasped, one can imagine, visualize and propose.” But whenever I provide an answer, apply your mind broadly to agree or disagree, the way you need to do even when reading my already released stuff. regds Devinder
Dear Devinderji,
i think I will not be able to read your book since it cannot be purchased in Nepali interntet. You have no alternative to sell otherwise. SO I think your ideas will remain with you only. But please do not forget that my basis of reform is Kalpa and manawantar concept of SS and also as confirmed as the true kalpa and manawantar by Bhagvat Purana.. Since the lunar month is our main Vedic month there is no alternative to the reform I have proposed by the lunar standard..Please note that the lunar months contain the 12 Aditya within them. These 12 Adityas in the 12 lunar months are said to be God’s incarnations or deputations. Unless a person understands about the Adityas within each lunar month people do not give importance to these months and think the solar months aer important. Also note that our Panchagas( five parts ) do not contain the sayan or nirayan solar months of Raashi or others.
You should thus tell me what are your necessary coditions so that one month reform can be accepted.
You surely are a logical person . There is no dcoubt in that. But still since the topic we are discussing is a very very great issue, you should not have been so insisting upon reading your book although i tried to do so. Is it possible that I send the money by draft and you send at least a photocopy to me by post. Darshaneylokesh does that also.
Hari Malla
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Dear Mr. Malla,
You wrote: “You should thus tell me what are your necessary coditions so that one month reform can be accepted.”
My reply “If I have to accept anything, it has to comply with the astronomical as well as traditional parameters. Your theory lacks astronomically and tries to justify the traditional confusions.”
Regarding book, I don’t insist anyone. But you have to appreciate that I can’t discuss 150 pages book via group discussion. I am answering your book querry and Nepali internet on your personal mail since this issue might not be of interest to other people here.
regds
Devinder
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Dear madame Theaji,
In my method of manwantars, ayanamsha plays a very insignificant role. So please do not make that as an issue to me.It may bother Devinderji but not me. My main issue with you is that you are not understanding about the Purusha which is within the lunar months.Without this knowledge of the Purusha or Truth consciousness.your understanding of the Vedas will always be incomplete.. You surely know about Krishna being from the lunar dynasty. Rama, although of the solar dynasty is by his name itself, referred as Rama Chandra relating him to the moon too.
@thea wrote:
My dear Hari Malla, It is not that I run away from answering questions either from you or Devinder. It is simply that we approach these matters from very different angles. I explained that in an earlier post this morning. I think that much is absolutely clear. No need to repeat. You state that I want to do away completely with the Nirayana system. Yes, certainly, as it is now formulated on the basis of Nakshatras and with multiple ayanamshas.>How will you interpret the story of Ganga without letting the nirayan system to remain. It wil be like a fairy tale wihtout the nirayan sytem prevailing. Your exaactness of the annual timing and the equinoxes snd solstices is prohibited by our Vedic system..It is related to the pole which is related to Brahmaji. This shows you have yet to get enlightened.
<I believe Devinder’s book on the subject has pages where he disputes each of them – to come up with his own, I suppose, the only correct one! In dealing with these matters after the Supramental Manifestation, there cannot be such confusion. There cannot be many stable 0 Points. Only one. And more importantly, the sidereal circle where the 12 are projected cannot be used for individual horoscopy or temple timings. It is used as a backdrop for the Precessional movement wherein we note the passages of the Ages/Manifestation.>
The supramental manifesatation of three pecessional cycles has now been proved to be Unvedic concept. Please note that the four yugas in one precesinal cycle (of around 6000 years) as you have mentioned mayhave been the fashion in the time of Aurobiduo Guru. But that has been useless now with the discovery of Kalpa or the day ogf Barhamji, being the precessional cycle itself..Please amend your said proposal of manifestations..
<This has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian calendar or Hindu or Islamic, and on and on. You are all caught up in difference, divisions. You keep insisting (overtly or covertly) that I want to impose the so-called Christian-Gregorian calendar on poor Hindus who are once again bamboozled by white skin proselytisers! The calendar used throughout the ancient pagan world and simply reformed by Pope Gregory cannot be called Christian. But you insist, so… >
It is unVedic if not Christian. The weakness of the Christians is they do not give any imortanceto the lunar dates. FOrthsiveryreaosn Islam religion was born.The vedic calendar is basically a luni solar calendar. So also teh hebew calendar. Please try to understand the meaning of Sunday as the first day of creation as mentiend in the old testament..also please note that Jesus was trying to fulfill the jewish religion, ot create a semi pagan religion.. But the christians gave up Jesus’s intentions and adopted the pagan calendar ie the Roman Julian calendar. So modern Christianiity would be more like a pagan religion, which would be something quite foreign to Jesus himself if he lived today..HE was trying to explain the lunar calendar by his acts of crucifixion, dying and ressurrection. The ressurection is acutally the resurrection of the Sunday in the lunar calendar ie earth-moon barycneter. You must give some time to understand this concept. If you like it would be my pleasure to help you here..
<Surely you all know that to calculate with utmost accuracy the true ayanamsha in the sidereal circle is a near impossibility. More to the point, it leaves astrology and cosmology open to unending disputes. You wish to end the disputes: Let us compromise, you ask. How can one compromise on something as essential as when to start reckoning time’s movement through the year and the Greater Years? There is no compromise possible. That is why I do not answer Devinder’s list of questions because for me they have absolutely no value at all. I will never convince him because of our different approaches, as I wrote earlier. Let him continue haggling with fellow Nirayanis over which is the ‘correct’ ayanamsha. I do not fit in with all of that. Finally, you assume to know so much about the Integral Yoga. My Lord, this is really just too much. It is nothing like what you claim. My friend, we are not at all on the same wave length, much less the same path. But not for that are we enemies! However, I must correct you when you attribute to the New Way and the Integral and Supramental Yogas conditions which do not at all apply. >
In Nepal, we have around five separate local stories to explain the Intergaral yoga like the Ganga sagar story of India..So we feel we know more details of this yoga. The Chinese also have one story. The intergral yoga is represented by their Laughing Buddha. They call it as Maitreya Buddha to match the conceept of Vishwa mitra. The Christians have the Second of Christ in the New Jerusalem as envisined by John, to explain the integral nature of the same story. The discussion group of the desciples of Socrates produced the story of Drowning of Atlantis to explain that same integral yoga. That story of Atlantis is not actually tens of thousands of years old as you think. Nor are the pyramids so old.
<My students are capable of instructing you on the differences, but I believe they have had enough by now. I wanted to have your views placed before the public as clearly as you and Devinder are able in this short space. This you both have done. My intention was not to allow you ANOTHER forum to continue the haggling that goes on among Nirayana astrologers who cannot agree on any ayanamsha. This has been achieved.>
No ayanamsha is necessary in my proposal since it is the proposal of the anciet Vedic people. Tisibased on tehe one month fluctuation of the interclaray lunar month. But lunar months are your weakness having a westerner upbringing. So it becomes hard for me to explain anything toyu unless you yourself make the effort to learn…Tehnyuwil have understood the Vedas well. I do not say you do not have the sirutal experiences. you surely have had wonderful experiences but theorizing is also necessary. You have not been exposed in this aspect of hindu theology.
<You have revealed the contours of your systems. Now the readers can decide which makes sense and is applicable and which is not.. I must add that with my new system this argument does not arise: the Gnostic Circle is simply a wheel of Time. Nothing more. It consists of the circle of 9 superimposed on the circle of 12 – in other words, a diagrammatic expression of the constituent elements of our solar system. HARMONY is the keyword. You enter the wheel at birth and you move through it in cycles and experience in each round the Vedic Journey of the Rishis.
>
None of your folks seem to have really shown much interest in what I have said about theluanr mnths. But some thing they may have captured. So I thank you for giving this chance to me to tell them something. Thank you again. Best wishes and Good bye.
Hari Malla
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I am happy Mr. Harish that at least one guy is daring. There are 5 questions to Ms. Thea and 3 to Mr. Arinaya. Make sure when you reply, you reply in logical/ academical manner and don’t create unnecessary web with your Gnostic circle, 12 manifestations etc. , to make sure my time is not wasted.
Eager to see your answers.
Yours
Devinder
I am amazed by Devinder’s post and would like to respond to his questions tomorrow.
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I am neither daring, nor do I have guts, I am just trying my level best to clarify things to you. Others have already answered your questions, and I am just trying to open your eyes to these answers – and I am talking about physical eyes and not even your inner eye.
I will answer your questions one by one.
2-Wild beast was referred Lion by not Sri Aurobindo but by Wilson in his translation in 1854 AD that also rendered to Sayana and only in comments
Are you blind physically? Sri Aurobindo did indeed translate the word Mriga as Lion and this has been a source of great controversy. Of course this translation was by Intuition or Divine Comings, but then it is also a very accurate translation. The Saint Annamachary hymned in Telugu, praising Vishnu as “Nara-Mriga Sharira Namo Namo” referring to the Man-Lion incarnation. Obviously this must a very ancient borrowing from Sanskrit into Telugu and the word mriga has retained in the Telugu tongue the sense of “Lion”. This is a clear case where Intution and Divine Comings trump logic and academics.
When you are dealing with the Vedas, one must realise that the source of these hymns is Intuition and not logic or academics. They come from from a different and exalted state of consciousness. So the first prerequisite for reading the Vedas should be having the same type of consciousness. A consciousness rooted in academics or logic cannot make sense of the Vedas.
Secondly you have also objected to the translation of Vrsne as Bull. You have instead suggested “showerer”. It really makes no sense in that context at all.
Your fundamental problem is your inability to read the Veda as it should be – a complete body of knowledge. The Vedic Rishis did not write this word one word at a time. The Truth in its entirety was comprehended, in a flash and then the Rishi hymned spontaneously, the words falling into place with the respective meanings. Sri Aurobindo too having perceived the Truth in a flash, attributes the meaning to respective words, so that the complete sense of the Intuitive Understanding and the Meaning of the Verses is preserved.
The translation of Vrshne as Bull is even more perfect when you consider the following verses and the Complete Meaning hinted at. Vishnu as The Bull leading the many-horned herds of light makes perfect sense factually and poetically, unlike “showerer”, which may give the meaning but not the sense and nuance and the complete meaning of all the verses taken together
In mathematics and even in the physical sciences, one of tests of the correctness of a mathematical postulate or theorem or theory to explain phenomenon (in the case of physical sciences) is that it not only solves and explains the problem at hand, but also throws light on other areas of mathematics and provides clues to explanations of other physical phenomenon as well.
Vrshne as Bull not only makes sense in those verses, but does so in all Vedic verses. It enlightens the meanings and sense behind those verses and clarifies everything.
Again in the relevant verses Rig Veda 1.154, Vishnu is shown as fertilising the energies which tries to reach up to him in his high abode – again the Bull is representation of the fertilising force and goes well with the overall meaning of the Verses and clarifies the purposes of Vishnu. In fact Vrshne probably referred to the fertilising force, and since in the physical plane that particular animal does something similar, the name Vrshabha was given to it.
Thus the fundamental error committed by you is two-fold. First you have a divisive consciousness, so characteristic of the Old Age and hence you read word for word instead of taking the full meaning and sense into account. Secondly, you have Panini’s dictionary of classical sanskrit with you and try to read the words of the Vedic Sanskrit with that! How stupid can one get! Words change their meaning and sense and the only way to recover it is by going through the same conscious experience of the Vedic Sages, and not by academics or logic – you will then end up with a “terrible deer” apart from other logical and academic monstrosities.
Even English words change their meanings within a few decades, and what to speak about a language like Sanskrit?
I am myself well-versed in Sanskrit but would defer to Aurobindo’s interpretation of the words in the Rig Veda and not my own. In fact even though Thea’s knowledge of Sanskrit is “limited” , I would rather listen to her if she gives a particular meaning of a word in the Vedas than my own understanding of it (based on Paninian sanskrit).
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You keep asking for FACTUAL proof. I do not understand what do you mean by that. What can be more factual than overlaying the Capricorn Symbol on the Indian Landmass and showing how it perfectly matches it? Again irrespective of whether you use the latitudes or longitudes, India always comes under Capricorn! What can be more factual and evidential than this? I guess you will accept something only if it is logical or academic, but then logic is merely a tool to arrive at the truth, not truth itself. Intuition is even better!
Most Indians say that India is the Guru among nations, but none can prove that factually. They say such things out of sentimental patriotism or they give a list of saints born in India. But I can also give a list of really great saints from the West, many of them of a greater calibre than many Indian saints, then what will be the Indian’s answer to that? I know what your unemotional answer will be, you will say I am bringing in Christianity. Only Thea has objectively proven that India is the Guru among Nations, the rest all say it out of patriotism and sentimentalism!
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Do understand that Srinivasa Ramanujan’s mathematics was all completely intuitional. It was nased entirely on Divine Comings. He did not even know logic and did not know how to prove his theorems. Professor Hardy proved most of them to be true, and even now Ramanujan’s mathematics finds application in many aspects of physical sciences. Recently, his work on modular-functions was seen as clarifying many aspects of the behaviour of Black Holes. Should we discard Ramanujan’s theories and its applicatons because it was intuitive and not logical?
Also do understand that most Physicists discovered the laws of nature intuitively and later worked out the mathematical details rigorously, which took many hours of hard work, and which had to be done to satisfy logical minds. If you are against Divine Comings, then you should stop using most scientifc inventions for they were based on divine comings. The zero too was invented by the Rishis intuitively and this computer runs on zeroes and ones. Why do you not discard the computer? Why do you, a man of logic, print e-books? Why don’t you stick with paper and ink books?
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Your question regarding 25920 years for the Precession.
I agree NASA’s current value is around 26,000 years, but do understand that it is not the final one.
If we look at theories in physical sciences, it is to a certain extent based on faith. We see most phenomenon agreeing with Einsteins’ Relativity and so we justifiably presume that it can explain all of the functionings of the Universe.
This faith is justified because the theory is elegant and answers most questions and there is sufficient reason to believe that it can provide full explanations.
In a similar way, given the complete body of knowledge that Thea has produced and how elegantly it explains everything, I am sure as instruments become more and more perfect it will be discovered that the true time taken for the precession is 25920 years.
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Your question regardin the Symbol of Capricorn in the Vedas.
It is quite clear that you do not understand the Veda at all. The Veda is not merely a book of sanskrit verses, rather it refers to the rtam, the harmony. It is found not merely in the sanskrit verses of the Rig Veda, but also in the devotional poetry of the Azhwars and Nayanmars, not to mention the Dasara Padas sung by the Kannada Saints. It is the free flowing rtam or the harmony, pictured as the river that is being dammed by hostile forces or Dasyas (the whole thing was wrong interpreted as a warfare between North Indians and South Indians, breaking each other’s dams!).
Capricorn or the Makara is the Tenth Month when the difficulty is the maximum, it is also the day/month/year when the victory is secured. As such it refers to an ascension of spirituality, its triumph over the dark forces and reaching the mountain abode of Vishnu (The Bull, fertilising with his Divine Sweetness and Power and Bliss the spiritual thoughts rising up to meet him). For this reason, Capricorn is also represented by the Mountain Top and as Thea has mentioned the Gopurams in the Temples represent the Capricorn. The Vedic Rishis were known as Kavi and they used poetic imagery to clarify spiritual concepts, but later the word came to mean any poet, though in the Bhagavad Gita there is a verse which preserves the original meaning of Kavi as Seer.
So you will not find the word CAPRICORN in the Veda, even if it is rendered in Roman Script.
But if you have eyes to SEE, you will find it almost everywhere in the Veda, in different guises.
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There is a specific reason why Thea uses the Christian Calender. We are in the Age of Aquarius, which is the Symbol of the Friend, and as such it is a period when the flood gates of Spiritual Knowledge is being opened to the masses. This is as opposed to the previous Age of Pisces when spiritual knowledge was in the hands of a few. Clearly we need a calendar that is widely used, and the Gregorian Calendar is the one. Even the Indian government uses it and so do most Indians everyday. Clearly, the Spirit of the Age demands we use a widely used calendar, and not some hindu calendar known only to a few. But then again if you insist the world the world should use the Hindu Calendar, which one should it be? Is it yours or those of your other Nirayani Friends? You will claim yours is logical and factual, but they claim that theirs is right too. There is no dispute regarding the Gregorian Calendar and She is justified in using it.
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The Gregorian Calendar is Vedic in the sense it is in keeping with the Harmony of the Age and it is most suited to make the masses have the lived experience of the Vedic Truths.
A thing is Vedic when it is Harmonious and Fulfils the Divine Will on Earth. It is not mandatory that it should created in India or even it should be written in Sanskrit.
It is the same reason why we call it Vedic Mathematic even though these methods are not found anywhere in the Vedas. These formulas were arrived at through a process of intuition – the very same methods that the Vedic Seers used to arrive at the Truth – and that is why it is Vedic! The fact that these techniques are not present in the Vedas matters little!
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harish wrote:
Do understand that Time is not Christian or Hindu. Time flows and these calendars were prepared by Pagans, and if some Pope made some changes taking into account some astronomical phenomenon, it does not mean that the Calender becomes Christian. Why, you a man of logic, bringing in religion here?
Dear Harishji,
Is this mail directed to me, since it is not addressed. ? If to me, then we have three types of solstices and equinoxes. The topical , solar and the lunar. Christians are used only the tropical solstices as their basis of celebrations.Please refer to their calucation of the Easter date and Christmas date. They have a peculiar way of considering the Easter celebration date and have in some way taken to lunar full moon too.We celebrate by the lunar date and sometime by the niriayan solar date. But we are prohibited to celebrate by the sayan date. There is a story to explain this. The Jews take the luni-solar date only. Both christinity and Islam do pay due respect to the old testament and alo to the Hebrew calendar. But due to sentiments of revenge they have given up the luni solar Hebrew calendar which that was better than the present they are following. In this way, They have both landed up in the inferior present quarrelsome situation.T he Islamic religon has thrown away the seaonal dates altogether in their celebrations and take seasonless lunar dates in revenge to the Christians..Both these are ill advised as experts inthis field can say.
Since we are now quite dveleoped in matter of Creation or evolution of life by God, or Nature, we should properly analyze these celebration dates and precscribe reforms for all religions to abetter future.. We have to analyze the religions festivals since we know the advantages and defects of the different calendars. Time being the most important factor for creation of life it can help in developing personalities and societies in the right way. The globe has been a village now.. We should help each other wtih knowledge of evlution of life…
Thank you for the interest.
Hari Malla
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harish wrote:
The Gregorian Calendar is Vedic in the sense it is in keeping with the Harmony of the Age and it is most suited to make the masses have the lived experience of the Vedic Truths. A thing is Vedic when it is Harmonious and Fulfils the Divine Will on Earth. It is not mandatory that it should created in India or even it should be written in Sanskrit. It is the same reason why we call it Vedic Mathematic even though these methods are not found anywhere in the Vedas. These formulas were arrived at through a process of intuition – the very same methods that the Vedic Seers used to arrive at the Truth – and that is why it is Vedic! The fact that these techniques are not present in the Vedas matters little!
Dear Harishji,
The Gregorina calendar is an inferior calendar because it is not in harmony with the universe. It does not recognise the lunar effects upon our life which is most important for the knowledge of God. It also does not recognise the static nature of the sun in the star world called as Eden in the Bible..Thus it is a degraded calendar introduced by the Julius Ceaser who suffered from Epilepsy. Thus his thinking was one sided, so he did away with the lunar dates in his Julian calendar due finding it complicated…This is fit only for the labour class in our society not for the intelligentsia.
The Gregorian calendar has made the wsetern world very materiailsitic. They make a lot of money and in the end fsnish it in wars. It is a non spiritual calendar. Thsu teh reson why moslems gveup theseaons in revenge to them. The religous people in chrisatainity involve too much into Politics in the name of religion..They try to buy converts with money, since they have little philosophy..
Hari Malla
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The Vedas are INFINITE. Since Mankind will become dumb in the Age of Kali, Vyasa compiled the most important revelations in Four Books in Sanskrit Language and given it to mankind for understanding. This does not mean that only those four books are Vedas. The Mayan Pyramids are more Vedic than many temples which conduct worship to deities while denying the eternality of the Soul.
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Hari Malla, the post was not addressed to you. I dont have any quarrel with you since you have your own cosmology and you want to leave this world and become lost in the E-M Barycenter (isn’t this western by the way?) and want to be with the Father. Hence Nirayana is the best calendar for you and please stick to that. Even the fact that you cannot measure perfectly (off by 0.0004 degrees) is perfect, because the Vast Transcendent Vishnu is immeasurable and your “faulty” calendar is actually perfect for your purposes.
Do understand that we are not saying Nirayana Calendar is wrong. Neither is it a fight between Indian and Westerners or Christians and Muslims and Hindus..
It was perfect for the Old Age when escaping from the World was the chief aim of human life, especially in India.
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harish wrote:
The Vedas are INFINITE. Since Mankind will become dumb in the Age of Kali, Vyasa compiled the most important revelations in Four Books in Sanskrit Language and given it to mankind for understanding. This does not mean that only those four books are Vedas. The Mayan Pyramids are more Vedic than many temples which conduct worship to deities while denying the eternality of the Soul.
Dear Harishji,
Truth is truth wether Vedic or Mayan. The Vedic analysis of truth is most scientific.This is the reason Vivekananda prescribed it for the future of humanity. Which religion says God is within the lunar months. There is no superstition here, if one understands..
Have you studiesd Shiva lingams? It is the picture of earth moon barycenter. Please compare it with the live picture which Lorij has posted to me in one of her mails. .Also please carefully study the Om symbol. Thank you,
Hari Malla
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Now we are in the Age of Supermind and Sri Aurobindo came to reverse the direction of Spiritual Quest. We are not trying to escape from the planet, but we are trying to Divinise Life on this Planet. It is not Life Denial but Life Divine. So we need a Earth-Centric Calendar and the Tropical System is the best. Our focus is on the Immanent Vishnu (who includes within him the Transcendent) and the Goddess. So we seek a Calendar that can make Life Divine on Earth Possible. It little matters if Tropical is Indian or Western, it is correct because it is in Harmony with the Spirit of the Age, and the written Vedas in Sanskrit also affirm the Tropical System (when they say “They shake not the least”).
In this Age of Aquarius, we are talking about Global Transformation and our choice of the Calendar is based on earth-centricity and the one that is widely used, so that everybody can have the lived experience. Only the Gregorian Calendar satisfies these criteria and I care not if it is Indian or Western.
Of course, if you can create an Indian Calendar that will be widely used all over the World, I will be absolutely delighted to accept it. But that is never going to happen as long as you give importance to the Nirayana System. Then, there are going to be hundreds of calendars, each one with his own “correct, logical and academic” calendar – the uncertainty is built into the system and you can never produce a single calendar for all Hindus, leave alone for the entire globe!
So don’t blame me for choosing a Christian Calendar! There is no alternative Hindu Calendar and there can never be one, as long as you base it on Nirayana! That is just our point!
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harish wrote:
Hari Malla, the post was not addressed to you. I dont have any quarrel with you since you have your own cosmology and you want to leave this world and become lost in the E-M Barycenter (isn’t this western by the way?) and want to be with the Father. Hence Nirayana is the best calendar for you and please stick to that. Even the fact that you cannot measure perfectly (off by 0.0004 degrees) is perfect, because the Vast Transcendent Vishnu is immeasurably and your “faulty” calendar is actually perfect for your purposes. Do understand that we are not saying Niarayana Calendar is wrong. Neither is it a fight between Indian and Westerners or Christians and Muslims and Hindus.. It was perfect for the Old Age when escaping from the World was the chief aim of human life, especially in India.
Dear Harishji,
Ours is a coordinated calendar which means it is ideal to practise all types of yoga and specially Intergral yoga. The labour class, the political class and the intelletucal or the spiritual class all can find their choices here. Say for winter solstices, our Dharma shasrtas ( Nirnaya sindhu, Dharma sindhu etc) specify four dates. Makar sankranti, Poush punrma, Poush sukla ekadashi and Poush Amavasya. All types of people who practise different types of yogas can find their dates here. It does not specify the shortest day for celebrations , which is specified by Christians for Christmas, because Brahamji has been cursed since it does not help us fully in our ultimate salvation. This means we want to live in peace and evolve to higher palnes and not in endless wars. The diferences for the Christmas as 25 December and January 1st is not placed at 21st. December seems to be for adjustment of the lunar date in the beginning of the calendar..
Sorry to say, Theaji being brought up in the western culture seems to find difficulties in grasping these facts. But I am hopeful once she understands the monthly menstruation cycle in women is due to the effects of the lunar month and the Golden red sun she experienced in 1972 did not really move, she will be convinced that the Vedic panchaga with its five part ( Vaar, Tithi, nakshyatra, yoga and karana ) is the ideal human creation..
Since we have the most ideal calendar in the world, we should also help other reilgions amend their calendar so that we all can live in harmony. Thank you,
Hari Malla
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harimalla wrote:
tim wrote:
harimalla wrote:
tim wrote:
Do you think we can correlate the solar , lunar and earth perspectives coordinated by this concept of Earth-Moon barycenter.? It could be very interesting if you agree to give a little attention to the barycentral viewpoint as the integration of the other three view points..thank you, Hari Malla
Hari,
Apologies for the delayed response. Yes this is interesting and Lori did a remarkable job in her explication of the barycenter. Honestly, I’ve never heard of such a thing. When I’m practicing my asanas while doing physical fitness routines I think I may experience something of the sort. But I also imagine that there are two center involved. This barcenter may be related to ego. The sense I have of it is constant. I fight and struggle to not fall down. Minor adjustments are being made in every system of the body… respiratory, circulatory, musculatory, etc. Many many minute adjustments to try an hold my pose. I think this describe the barycenter no? But the core is located elswhere. On occassion I’ve glimpsed the Core. Some days the asanas are dreadfully difficult and I’m all over the place straining for balance. On other days there is no effort. Almost as if a string is attached to an anchor the supports me and holds me up. The movement is effortless.
This probably won’t help you much but I appreciate your question because it certainly helps me to expound a bit about this topic. The subtle Sun within me is increasingly finding an anchor. The anchor has always been there no doubt but my ego and fighting spirit has resisted the obvious…
In term of the Sun, Moon, Earth perspective I believe that the illustration was not merely metaphorical but literal in the sense that there are four dimensions at work. Standing too firmly or clinging to any one perspective runs the risk of distorting our view so a simultaneous perspective is required.
Thank you Hari…
Tim
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Mr. Harish,
This forum setup is not bit user friendly, so I would have loved to see your answers in one post itself instead of so many. Anyways, I would take that pain this time. I expect one reply in case you post. I am writing H for you and DD for me:
H wrote ” I am myself well-versed in Sanskrit but would defer to Aurobindo’s interpretation of the words in the Rig Veda and not my own. In fact even though Thea’s knowledge of Sanskrit is “limited” , I would rather listen to her if she gives a particular meaning of a word in the Vedas than my own understanding of it (based on Paninian sanskrit).”
DD reply “If you rather listen to Madam Thea or Sri Aurobindo’s interpretations despite having good knowledge yourself, THAT IS INDEED YOUR PROBLEM, my dear friend, Not Mine.
Neither I am supporting Sri Aurobindo nor I am opposing anyone. I am a neutral truth seeker and I don’t get impressed by names BUT just the content and that content could come from even someone lying on a footpath. So, keep this assertion away from all these discussions.”
H wrote “Sri Aurobindo did indeed translate the word Mriga as Lion”
DD reply “He might also have BUT someone named Wilson mentioned it in a book released in 1854, much before the birth of Sri Aurobindo. So, open your eyes, there is no divine coming in it. Why to rule out the possibility that Sri Aurobindo might have read the available translations in his time.”
H wrote “When you are dealing with the Vedas, one must realise that the source of these hymns is Intuition and not logic or academics.”
DD replies ” Oh really! Am I listening just intuition and no logic and academic? Then what solstice/ equinox as an observation you are talking of.
H wrote “Vrsne as Bull. You have instead suggested “showerer””
DD replies “Not me, my dear friend, all the translators except Griffith do it. Read all the available books, not just Sri Aurobindo, that is again your problem, not mine”
H wrote “Vrshne as Bull not only makes sense in those verses, but does so in all Vedic verses. It enlightens the meanings and sense behind those verses and clarifies everything. ”
DD replies “Vedas can be read wearing any SPECS of choice. So anyone can take advantage by calling it his intuition. It has to be substantiated by factual proofs.”
Your rest statements about me in your first post are of no use to me or anyone else. So, I am not giving any comment.
2nd post :
H wrote “That can be more factual than overlaying the Capricorn Symbol on the Indian Landmass and showing how it perfectly matches it? ”
DD replies “Unlike you, I would not say you are blind because FACTS don’t need proof. My question was “How do you see symbol of capricorn in vedas?”, so where have you answered my question. Personally, if you want to present India as Capricorn, I don’t have issue but if you want it to relate to vedas, provide verse where vedas have specified capricorn symbol? ”
Nothing special in rest of content of this post
Post 3:
H wrote “Should we discard Ramanujan’s theories and its applicatons because it was intuitive and not logical? ”
DD replies “It is upto any individual. In fact, you have answered the question yourself by saying “And later worked out the mathematical details rigorously,”
BUT in your case, there is no room for just intuition when you want to relate it to already existing texts called Vedas. You have to provide your academic proofs and relative mathematics to substantiate it. I have already written this is the road block. Either let your intuitions exist independent of vedas and if you dare to align it with vedas, you would be asked questions. It is as simple as that else it would remain just ASSERTION.”
Post 4:
H wrote “I agree NASA’s current value is around 26,000 years, but do understand that it is not the final one. ”
DD replies ” First of all you don’t know my stand on this. I have even questioned NASA figure in my book. NASA figure is on assumptions. ”
H wrote “I am sure as instruments become more and more perfect it will be discovered that the true time taken for the precession is 25920 years”
DD replies “Time will tell but Alas! none of us would live for so many years. My question is still not attended, my question was “On what basis you are choosing just 25920……obviously a handiwork of those birth dates of 4 people, number 9 and knowing NASA figure of around 26000. Why not 27000?”
Post 5:
H wrote “Do understand that Time is not Christian or Hindu. ”
DD replies “Where do you see I have brought religion in picture, dear friend. You have still not understood the question. You are using 4 birth dates of 4 persons including of Sri Aurobindo and deducing number 5 from his birth date based on Gregorian calendar. So, obviously, if you in the same breath relate it to vedas. You are befooling YOURSELF and NO ONE else.
Obviously, vedas did not have Gregorian calendar and hence any birth date specified in today’s calendar, be it yours or mine or anyone else, can’t represent a number existing at the time of Vedas. Think broadly, removing the blindfolds of your following.”
Post 6:
H wrote “So you will not find the word CAPRICORN in the Veda, even if it is rendered in Roman Script. ”
DD replies “My question was on symbol? You provide a vedic verse where Capricorn and its symbol is relevant in whatever form directly or indirectly it exists. ”
Post 7:
H wrote “……”
DD replies “Already replied in post 5 above. Read and understand the question first before answering.”
Just on lighter side when you say “There is a specific reason why Thea uses the Christian Calender.”, can be answered “Yes, because by doing so, she can relate her birth date to align it to 25920 years figure and then even dare to relate it to Vedas without knowing what existed in vedic times.”
Post 8:
H wrote “The Gregorian Calendar is Vedic in the sense it is in keeping with the Harmony of the Age and it is most suited to make the masses have the lived experience of the Vedic Truths. ”
DD replies “My dear friend, blind person can still understand the right thing but mentally blind can’t. Do you wan to tell me that if you were born on 31-07-1979 and deduce a number 1 using modern numerology from it and call it as per vedic mathematics, I would believe it. This is simply laughable. No July existed then, obviously no 07 number, when July did not exist, obviously 31 itself has no value and 1979 has anyway no significance before Christ era.”
Out of the 5 question raised to Madam Thea, you attempted two and I have already contested above.”
Following questions were not attended at all:
Q2) Since Ms. Thea answered (in fact accepted) that for Ages/ manifestations, she uses sidereal zodiac in her last post.
My reply/ question “Fair enough, but half knowledge is not right! so please provide your zero point for this since you are using this in your 12 manifestations and agreeing to a different zodiac”
Q4) You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question, What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
Q5) To add one more thing to that sum up, “Varuna is God of water and related to evening, Mitra is opposite to it at dawn. So, how do you justify it in your understanding of Mitra as Aquarius and Varuna as Capricorn when both are at opposite plane, dawn and dusk as per veda”. This is Question 5, Q5 for you.
Out of three points pending with Mr. Arinaya, you tried two and ignored the existence of nakshatras in vedas , so point 2 remain unattended as under:
P2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
regds
Devinder
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Dear Mr.Tim,
Thank you for the reply. The barycenter is the highest point in our brain. It is reachable only after life long practice. Before that we have to go in steps starting from the navel or even below. In fact right from the bottom of the spine known as the Muladhar chakra..This is connected to the earth inner core. Then our faculty of knowing the world. After this knowing faculty we reach our doing faculty at the navel which is connetd to the north pole of the earth.. Here we have our working energy or force. Then at the level of the heart we have the loving faculty. Here we reach the sunat the heart. After we conquer this we go to the throat level where we have the believing faculty or Faith. This is called as the Visudddha chakra. WE reach the speech of the vowels here.
WE reach the Moon at the forehead level backside of the bain where we have the vision center.. Then at the top of our head we experience the pure God experience which is the consciouness within us and the barycenter too ..It is he final Samadhi when our heart is fully satisfied with life havng seen God the creato,r like a formless space….Alk our worries vanish..
tim wrote:
harimalla wrote:
tim wrote:
harimalla wrote:
tim wrote:
Do you think we can correlate the solar , lunar and earth perspectives coordinated by this concept of Earth-Moon barycenter.? It could be very interesting if you agree to give a little attention to the barycentral viewpoint as the integration of the other three view points..thank you, Hari Malla
Hari, Apologies for the delayed response. Yes this is interesting and Lori did a remarkable job in her explication of the barycenter. Honestly, I’ve never heard of such a thing. When I’m practicing my asanas while doing physical fitness routines I think I may experience something of the sort. But I also imagine that there are two center involved. This barcenter may be related to ego. The sense I have of it is constant. I fight and struggle to not fall down. Minor adjustments are being made in every system of the body… respiratory, circulatory, musculatory, etc. Many many minute adjustments to try an hold my pose. I think this describe the barycenter no? But the core is located elswhere. On occassion I’ve glimpsed the Core. Some days the asanas are dreadfully difficult and I’m all over the place straining for balance. On other days there is no effort. Almost as if a string is attached to an anchor the supports me and holds me up. The movement is effortless. This probably won’t help you much but I appreciate your question because it certainly helps me to expound a bit about this topic. The subtle Sun within me is increasingly finding an anchor. The anchor has always been there no doubt but my ego and fighting spirit has resisted the obvious… In term of the Sun, Moon, Earth perspective I believe that the illustration was not merely metaphorical but literal in the sense that there are four dimensions at work. Standing too firmly or clinging to any one perspective runs the risk of distorting our view so a simultaneous perspective is required. Thank you Hari… Tim
>
Please do not try to apply force here. let everything be natural progression. Gradually with the passage of time, we can reach that point with the help of God’s grace. We must have the patience and success will be guaranteed..I will be giving practical hints from time to time. It wil be about meditation with the help of physical heavenly objects like the pole star, the sun and the moon.Thank you for your ineterest in it. please rest assured my method will be scientific and logical. thank you,
Hari Malla
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Thea asked that this topic be closed with Harish’s fine replies. All that can be said, has been said.
What strikes me after rereading the entire thread can be summed up in something Thea wrote:
[W]e always come to the same point: contemporary Indian astrologers and pundits have lost the knowledge of the meaning of the zodiacal signs. Therefore they have eliminated them and refer only to Nakshatras and to the astrological houses for interpretations; limiting them to a very superficial layer of the Art.
To close this off, since Devinder is still calling attention to his unanswered questions, I will make a final effort to address them here:
Q2) Since Ms. Thea answered (in fact accepted) that for Ages/ manifestations, she uses sidereal zodiac in her last post.
My reply/ question “Fair enough, but half knowledge is not right! so please provide your zero point for this since you are using this in your 12 manifestations and agreeing to a different zodiac”
If you read the materials that were suggested by Robert or Jan, or even carefully read the contents of this thread, you will discover that Thea’s “zero point” is connected to the coming of the Avatars, and that according to her the current Age of Aquarius began in 1926. Note that this is not determined in relation to the stars, but in relation to events on Earth, specifically the evolution of consciousness on Earth. The relevant facts are inseparable from the “meaning of the zodiacal signs” and their connection to the Avatars of Vishnu. In order to appreciate these facts, we would need to appreciate the (zodiacal) language in which the facts are presented.
Q4) You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question, What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
We would need to take each god in turn, discover its pscyho-spiritual function within the Vedic system of symbols (for example, as Sri Aurobindo attempted in The Secret of the Veda); we would need to do the same with the zodiacal signs and identify the points of contact. Some of them are easy (Agni rides a Ram, Ashwins are twins and stand opposite the sign of the Horse), others are more complex. But just stating isolated facts is meaningless unless it is connected to a coherent body of knowledge. Again, we would need to delve deeply into the language of the zodiac and the symbolism it contains.
Q5) To add one more thing to that sum up, “Varuna is God of water and related to evening, Mitra is opposite to it at dawn. So, how do you justify it in your understanding of Mitra as Aquarius and Varuna as Capricorn when both are at opposite plane, dawn and dusk as per veda”. This is Question 5, Q5 for you.
As above, any answer will be meaningless unless it is connected to a complete body of cosmological knoweldge. Just saying “Varuna is god of water” says nothing about his deeper spiritual functions. Mitra-Varuna are solar deities, closely connected to the Vedic “fourth world” (Satyam-Ritam-Brihad). I suggest you read The New Way, vols 1 & 2, to discover how Thea connects the Vedic gods Mitra, Varuna, Bhaga and Aryaman to the “fourth world” (fourth quarter of the zodiac). It’s more than I can cover in this short space.
P2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
Thanks. The Nakshatras here seem to be invoked as helpers of some kind.
“The brilliant lights shining in heaven together, which through the world glide on with rapid motion.” The opening verse seems to suggest that in Vedic times, the stars were not seen as “fixed” but as rapidly moving, which points to a geocentric view of the cosmos.
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