@devinder
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Mr. Harish,
This forum setup is not bit user friendly, so I would have loved to see your answers in one post itself instead of so many. Anyways, I would take that pain this time. I expect one reply in case you post. I am writing H for you and DD for me:
H wrote ” I am myself well-versed in Sanskrit but would defer to Aurobindo’s interpretation of the words in the Rig Veda and not my own. In fact even though Thea’s knowledge of Sanskrit is “limited” , I would rather listen to her if she gives a particular meaning of a word in the Vedas than my own understanding of it (based on Paninian sanskrit).”
DD reply “If you rather listen to Madam Thea or Sri Aurobindo’s interpretations despite having good knowledge yourself, THAT IS INDEED YOUR PROBLEM, my dear friend, Not Mine.
Neither I am supporting Sri Aurobindo nor I am opposing anyone. I am a neutral truth seeker and I don’t get impressed by names BUT just the content and that content could come from even someone lying on a footpath. So, keep this assertion away from all these discussions.”
H wrote “Sri Aurobindo did indeed translate the word Mriga as Lion”
DD reply “He might also have BUT someone named Wilson mentioned it in a book released in 1854, much before the birth of Sri Aurobindo. So, open your eyes, there is no divine coming in it. Why to rule out the possibility that Sri Aurobindo might have read the available translations in his time.”
H wrote “When you are dealing with the Vedas, one must realise that the source of these hymns is Intuition and not logic or academics.”
DD replies ” Oh really! Am I listening just intuition and no logic and academic? Then what solstice/ equinox as an observation you are talking of.
H wrote “Vrsne as Bull. You have instead suggested “showerer””
DD replies “Not me, my dear friend, all the translators except Griffith do it. Read all the available books, not just Sri Aurobindo, that is again your problem, not mine”
H wrote “Vrshne as Bull not only makes sense in those verses, but does so in all Vedic verses. It enlightens the meanings and sense behind those verses and clarifies everything. ”
DD replies “Vedas can be read wearing any SPECS of choice. So anyone can take advantage by calling it his intuition. It has to be substantiated by factual proofs.”
Your rest statements about me in your first post are of no use to me or anyone else. So, I am not giving any comment.
2nd post :
H wrote “That can be more factual than overlaying the Capricorn Symbol on the Indian Landmass and showing how it perfectly matches it? ”
DD replies “Unlike you, I would not say you are blind because FACTS don’t need proof. My question was “How do you see symbol of capricorn in vedas?”, so where have you answered my question. Personally, if you want to present India as Capricorn, I don’t have issue but if you want it to relate to vedas, provide verse where vedas have specified capricorn symbol? ”
Nothing special in rest of content of this post
Post 3:
H wrote “Should we discard Ramanujan’s theories and its applicatons because it was intuitive and not logical? ”
DD replies “It is upto any individual. In fact, you have answered the question yourself by saying “And later worked out the mathematical details rigorously,”
BUT in your case, there is no room for just intuition when you want to relate it to already existing texts called Vedas. You have to provide your academic proofs and relative mathematics to substantiate it. I have already written this is the road block. Either let your intuitions exist independent of vedas and if you dare to align it with vedas, you would be asked questions. It is as simple as that else it would remain just ASSERTION.”
Post 4:
H wrote “I agree NASA’s current value is around 26,000 years, but do understand that it is not the final one. ”
DD replies ” First of all you don’t know my stand on this. I have even questioned NASA figure in my book. NASA figure is on assumptions. ”
H wrote “I am sure as instruments become more and more perfect it will be discovered that the true time taken for the precession is 25920 years”
DD replies “Time will tell but Alas! none of us would live for so many years. My question is still not attended, my question was “On what basis you are choosing just 25920……obviously a handiwork of those birth dates of 4 people, number 9 and knowing NASA figure of around 26000. Why not 27000?”
Post 5:
H wrote “Do understand that Time is not Christian or Hindu. ”
DD replies “Where do you see I have brought religion in picture, dear friend. You have still not understood the question. You are using 4 birth dates of 4 persons including of Sri Aurobindo and deducing number 5 from his birth date based on Gregorian calendar. So, obviously, if you in the same breath relate it to vedas. You are befooling YOURSELF and NO ONE else.
Obviously, vedas did not have Gregorian calendar and hence any birth date specified in today’s calendar, be it yours or mine or anyone else, can’t represent a number existing at the time of Vedas. Think broadly, removing the blindfolds of your following.”
Post 6:
H wrote “So you will not find the word CAPRICORN in the Veda, even if it is rendered in Roman Script. ”
DD replies “My question was on symbol? You provide a vedic verse where Capricorn and its symbol is relevant in whatever form directly or indirectly it exists. ”
Post 7:
H wrote “……”
DD replies “Already replied in post 5 above. Read and understand the question first before answering.”
Just on lighter side when you say “There is a specific reason why Thea uses the Christian Calender.”, can be answered “Yes, because by doing so, she can relate her birth date to align it to 25920 years figure and then even dare to relate it to Vedas without knowing what existed in vedic times.”
Post 8:
H wrote “The Gregorian Calendar is Vedic in the sense it is in keeping with the Harmony of the Age and it is most suited to make the masses have the lived experience of the Vedic Truths. ”
DD replies “My dear friend, blind person can still understand the right thing but mentally blind can’t. Do you wan to tell me that if you were born on 31-07-1979 and deduce a number 1 using modern numerology from it and call it as per vedic mathematics, I would believe it. This is simply laughable. No July existed then, obviously no 07 number, when July did not exist, obviously 31 itself has no value and 1979 has anyway no significance before Christ era.”
Out of the 5 question raised to Madam Thea, you attempted two and I have already contested above.”
Following questions were not attended at all:
Q2) Since Ms. Thea answered (in fact accepted) that for Ages/ manifestations, she uses sidereal zodiac in her last post.
My reply/ question “Fair enough, but half knowledge is not right! so please provide your zero point for this since you are using this in your 12 manifestations and agreeing to a different zodiac”
Q4) You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question, What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
Q5) To add one more thing to that sum up, “Varuna is God of water and related to evening, Mitra is opposite to it at dawn. So, how do you justify it in your understanding of Mitra as Aquarius and Varuna as Capricorn when both are at opposite plane, dawn and dusk as per veda”. This is Question 5, Q5 for you.
Out of three points pending with Mr. Arinaya, you tried two and ignored the existence of nakshatras in vedas , so point 2 remain unattended as under:
P2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
regds
Devinder
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I am happy Mr. Harish that at least one guy is daring. There are 5 questions to Ms. Thea and 3 to Mr. Arinaya. Make sure when you reply, you reply in logical/ academical manner and don’t create unnecessary web with your Gnostic circle, 12 manifestations etc. , to make sure my time is not wasted.
Eager to see your answers.
Yours
Devinder
I am amazed by Devinder’s post and would like to respond to his questions tomorrow.
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Dear Mr. Malla,
You wrote: “You should thus tell me what are your necessary coditions so that one month reform can be accepted.”
My reply “If I have to accept anything, it has to comply with the astronomical as well as traditional parameters. Your theory lacks astronomically and tries to justify the traditional confusions.”
Regarding book, I don’t insist anyone. But you have to appreciate that I can’t discuss 150 pages book via group discussion. I am answering your book querry and Nepali internet on your personal mail since this issue might not be of interest to other people here.
regds
Devinder
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Mr. Malla,
You wrote “Devinder agrees that we need both sayan and nirayan. But he perhaps thinks it is not yet the time to reform because uttaryan has not reached Dhanu sankranti.”
My reply “I would give my opinion at right time in right manner logically and academically. I don’t live on just imaginations. Only once fundamentals are grasped, one can imagine, visualize and propose.”
But whenever I provide an answer, apply your mind broadly to agree or disagree, the way you need to do even when reading my already released stuff.
regds
Devinder
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Madam Thea,
Why are you giving up so easily. Come on, so many books under your name, you must have guts to answer. OR is it that you have understood that your ideas are not aligned to Vedas and there is no FACTUAL support in it.
In my sum up, there are 5 questions pending to you and 3 points unattended with Mr. Arinaya. You have tried to touch 1 or 2 issues indirectly in your post to Mr. Malla. I would certainly provide my inputs.
You wrote “I want to do away completely with the Nirayana system.”
My reply “Alas! you can not run away from the sky.”
You wrote “I believe Devinder’s book on the subject has pages where he disputes each of them – to come up with his own, I suppose, the only correct one!”
My reply “Yes, I have argued logically and academically. But unlike you, I am not forcing my ideas on anyone and open to logical/ academic arguments even now with broadmind. One must read the complete book to reach to any colclusion. Compared to your books, it is quite cheap. If you had priced one of your book like “The Gnostic Circle” at the similar price, I might have procured and argued with all inputs from you but even without reading it, I have understood that it is not aligned to vedas and lacks FACTUAL support in this regard.
You wrote “ It is used as a backdrop for the Precessional movement wherein we note the passages of the Ages/Manifestation. ”
My reply “Fair enough, but half knowledge is not right! so please provide your zero point for this since you are using this in your 12 manifestations and agreeing to a different zodiac”
You wrote “This has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian calendar or Hindu or Islamic, and on and on. ”
My reply “My dear madam, then why are you co-ordinating 2592 with the four birth dates specified in numbers of Gregorian calendar. If none of your students have questioned you on this, you are lucky till date. Obviously if you specify your birth date in Christian Calendar and then use numerology to indicate a number, it is BOGUS if claimed to have aligned to VEDAS and presented as FACTUAL support. Vedas did not have Christian Calendar. Any sincere student would have asked you this question by now. And even if they missed it, they have an opportunity now to ask you this question rather than getting emotional on this. ”
You wrote “That is why I do not answer Devinder’s list of questions because for me they have absolutely no value at all.”
My reply “all the five questions that you are not answering, are not related to ayanamsa. I can discuss these issues independent of predictive astrology any time any day. It is only the opposition that brings the issue of astrology again and again and seeks hiding in it.”
You wrote “I will never convince him because of our different approaches,”
My reply “Whatever approach you use, belongs to you. Issue is not the approach, issue is lack of FACTUAL support in relation to Vedas. So either provide Factual support in this regard or stop claiming your approach aligned to Vedas. Let it exist independently and I would still listen to your approach.”
You wrote “You enter the wheel at birth and you move through it in cycles and experience in each round the Vedic Journey of the Rishis.”
My reply “Even astrology states same in its own language but does not specify it as Vedic journey of the Rishis”
I have answered enough. Waiting answers to my questions and pending points.
regds
Devinder
thea wrote:
My dear Hari Malla, It is not that I run away from answering questions either from you or Devinder. It is simply that we approach these matters from very different angles. I explained that in an earlier post this morning. I think that much is absolutely clear. No need to repeat. You state that I want to do away completely with the Nirayana system. Yes, certainly, as it is now formulated on the basis of Nakshatras and with multiple ayanamshas. I believe Devinder’s book on the subject has pages where he disputes each of them – to come up with his own, I suppose, the only correct one! In dealing with these matters after the Supramental Manifestation, there cannot be such confusion. There cannot be many stable 0 Points. Only one. And more importantly, the sidereal circle where the 12 are projected cannot be used for individual horoscopy or temple timings. It is used as a backdrop for the Precessional movement wherein we note the passages of the Ages/Manifestation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian calendar or Hindu or Islamic, and on and on. You are all caught up in difference, divisions. You keep insisting (overtly or covertly) that I want to impose the so-called Christian-Gregorian calendar on poor Hindus who are once again bamboozled by white skin proselytisers! The calendar used throughout the ancient pagan world and simply reformed by Pope Gregory cannot be called Christian. But you insist, so… Surely you all know that to calculate with utmost accuracy the true ayanamsha in the sidereal circle is a near impossibility. More to the point, it leaves astrology and cosmology open to unending disputes. You wish to end the disputes: Let us compromise, you ask. How can one compromise on something as essential as when to start reckoning time’s movement through the year and the Greater Years? There is no compromise possible. That is why I do not answer Devinder’s list of questions because for me they have absolutely no value at all. I will never convince him because of our different approaches, as I wrote earlier. Let him continue haggling with fellow Nirayanis over which is the ‘correct’ ayanamsha. I do not fit in with all of that. Finally, you assume to know so much about the Integral Yoga. My Lord, this is really just too much. It is nothing like what you claim. My friend, we are not at all on the same wave length, much less the same path. But not for that are we enemies! However, I must correct you when you attribute to the New Way and the Integral and Supramental Yogas conditions which do not at all apply. My students are capable of instructing you on the differences, but I believe they have had enough by now. I wanted to have your views placed before the public as clearly as you and Devinder are able in this short space. This you both have done. My intention was not to allow you ANOTHER forum to continue the haggling that goes on among Nirayana astrologers who cannot agree on any ayanamsha. This has been achieved. You have revealed the contours of your systems. Now the readers can decide which makes sense and is applicable and which is not.. I must add that with my new system this argument does not arise: the Gnostic Circle is simply a wheel of Time. Nothing more. It consists of the circle of 9 superimposed on the circle of 12 – in other words, a diagrammatic expression of the constituent elements of our solar system. HARMONY is the keyword. You enter the wheel at birth and you move through it in cycles and experience in each round the Vedic Journey of the Rishis.
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Madam Thea,
Would you please answer the real questions instead of creating a web to confuse others so that no one ask questions next timne. This is very old trick. If you run away from questions, you don’t even help yourself. I have already summed up everything in previous psot yesterday and I expect straight answers.
To add one more thing to that sum up, “Varuna is God of water and related to evening, Mitra is opposite to it at dawn. So, how do you justify it in your understanding of Mitra as Aquarius and Varuna as Capricorn when both are at opposite plane, dawn and dusk as per veda”. This is Question 5, Q5 for you.
Once real discussion starts with real answers, I would explain that also “Shake not the least” that Dear Arinaya is quoting a lot in every post.
Awaiting answers to 5 questions to you and three points unattended with Mr. Arinaya.
regds
Devinder
thea wrote:
I expected to move out of this discussion, having said my piece already, but statements by our Nirayani friends are too stimulating to let pass. But, I repeat, if one is not initiated into these mysteries, one cannot recognise anything deeper than what Devinder and Hari Malla seek to establish. In this light, I will further confirm the importance of the 10th sign Capricorn/Makar for the Rishi. The victory of the Aryan Warrior is held to be in the 10th month, which is the 10th sign from the March equinox. Where does the 10th sign figure? In the Rig Veda it is more subtle because Sanskrit is the perfect language to hide the deeper mysteries from the profane. There are two or more levels to Sanskrit, and by consequent many different ways of translating. This is why one has to rely on the guidance of a recognised Seer, not just a Sanskrit pundit. That apart, the easiest way to learn of those connections and the precise meaning of the symbols because they are then given overtly, is to study the architecture and iconography that was formulated during the Puranic Age in the effort to preserve that higher knowledge when Bharat was being invaded by antagonistic forces. The temple would secure that worship would go on, and the symbolism would be carried over to the time of the appearance of the 9th Avatar (not Gautam the Buddha!). It is for this reason that these mysteries are being unveiled today. Iconography itself confirms my reading of Ganga. I use our contemporary coordinates of longitude and latitude to ‘locate’ Ganga on the body of Bharat Mata. What is the crime in doing so, Mr Devinder? Shouldn’t you rejoice at the very idea that this could be done? But don’t take my word for it. We have iconography to confirm what I arrived at through initiation and not through reading the scriptures. I referred to Varuna and his vahana Makar to prove the composite symbolism of Goat/Fish; (if you want to know the connection, please refer to my published work The New Way 2); trust me, it is there, clear and explicit. I have also measured Ganga via the same Capricorn symbol and found her source to be at 12 degrees Capricorn, or when converted to days it is the 3rd of January. Her mouths are located at 0 degree Capricorn (the Makar Sankranti of the solar calendar). I therefore sometimes refer to her as the River of January, also because of her connection with Jahnu. She was following Bhagirath in her descent on Earth and when they reached the ashram of the sage Jahnu (janveri, January?), she flooded it and put our the sacrificial fire! Jahnu then cursed her and swallowed her up! Superstitious nonsense? Not so, my friends, but only if you know these explicit zodiacal connections, unknown to contemporary astrologers in India, but not to those of earlier times or abroad On that basis we remove once again the taint of superstition that the West and its Abrahamic culture throws on Hinduism. This is easily done when we know that Capricorn is ruled by Saturn which in turn rules the EARS in the body! How sweetly the zodiacal content is preserved. This rulership is common knowledge, it is not my invention. But we find it in India only in myths today. So, we have confirmed from the myths the Capricorn essence of Ganga; and Thea has discovered her Earthly physical location, as well as temporal. And naturally Ganga’s vahana also confirms Capricorn/Makar, for it is none other than a makar! And here she is descending from the celestial sphere on her most precious makar… Gangadevi on Makar
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Dear all,
Summing up,
Reply to Mr. Arinaya and unattended part:
P1) Here also you have agreed that vedas don’t specify 25920 years. Why don’t you write details of what is your understanding of Vedic Maths rather than getting emotional on this? 360 days are 360 spokes, what does 9 has to do with this? And if you are still hell bound on 9, why 9? Why just 25920?, even 27000, 36000 are also divisible by 9?
P2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
P3) RV 1.154 –
2-Wild beast was referred Lion by not Sri Aurobindo but by Wilson in his translation in 1854 AD that also rendered to Sayana and only in comments.
3-Same Wilson did not specify Bull for Vrshne. It is only Griffith who specified Bull…. actually Bull is out of sync in the whole verse.. It is not Vrishabh…..Bur VrshNe i.e. “showerer”
5-The third part “Priya” is totally out of sync as all the translators have rightly commented it as “the well loved” ….If at all someone is lookout for “Friend”, it could be “Bandhu” …….. Now aligning Bandhu to Aquarius since 11th sign is for friendship is all imagination to align the wrongly understood Bull in 3) above…… and what abt Scorpio?
For benefit of everyone, I am refreshing your memories so that questions raised to Madam Thea are answered point to point rather than creating a loopback that serves no purpose at all to anybody.
Q1) “By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and when vedas were there before Christ era… …. these numbers can never represent vedic era. To simplify, we never had January, February in vedic times with January having 31 days etc…etc…
You have not yet answered the second question, I repost
Q2) Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
On symbol of capricorn, you have not yet understood the question and hasting to conclude that I don’t know about cardinal points and symbols.
So, I repost question 3 as you have not still answered
Q3) Where do you find symbol of capricorn in vedas? Please provide verse number from vedas.
You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question
Q4) What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
I would again reiterate where I began my last post “In an academic and logical discussion, one has to be focussed. I proposed in the beginning “Either present your understandign of cosmology independent of vedas or align it properly.”
So, would you please answer the real stuff.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
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Dear Tim,
Why don’t you try the questions raised and answer straight way and not run away from the questions because it challenges the framework you have been living for so many days.
Obviously if you can’rt understand the questions and the discussion, you are yet to grow in your pursuits and are just living in an aura created by such spiritual awakenings that don’t have any “FACTUAL” value if are not well supported logically and academically.
On the real truth, I am helping you people to realize where you are totally wrong.
The behaviors of most of you is changed from “Dear Devinder” to “Devinder” in one or two posts. I am known to live amidst all these oppositions, and I actually ENJOY all these outbursts since it is like half the truth won without doing anything.
Personally, I don’t have any issues with any of you and not even your understanding of cosmology. In reality, cosmology is cosmology and we can understand it right or wrong.
My contention is simple “Either live with your ideas independent of specifying/ relating it to vedas or else provide FACUTAL support how it is related to vedas. Until then, it all remains a standalone thing.
Insead of writing the nonsense, have guts to participate in the real discussion and find answers to my questions. If you think questions have been answered, provide reference where they have been answered instead of writing “I think so.”… No assertions please, answer to the point.
regds
Devinder
tim wrote:
devinder wrote:
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
Devinder, I have no clue what you are saying… yet when I concentrate on what others have written here they express a coherence and clarity which is lacking in your expression. The tone and delivery of your messages are reminiscent of a certain disruptive and rebellious student in geometry class who does not follow the lesson but needs desperately to win attention. So he vies to get noticed and in his attempt to wrest authority by being “cool” it back fires. That “certain student in geometry” would be me. I have no argument for you because I can’t understand what you are saying. JC is an accomplished student and was pointing out to you, and I would add she has correctly pointed out, that you come across as disrespectful, biligerent and inchorehent. Perhaps my opinion is not “fact” but I would wager that it is unanimous. As far as discovering the PROOFS in this work you will need to do your lessons first. Do your homework. Every question you’ve launched is answered fully in the body of PNBs texts. Instead you blabber on about nothing. And then you come back here and insult the fine people I am trying to learn from. Ciao, Tim
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Madam Thea,
You wrote in post dated 27th May, 02: 35 “Another objection is the entrenched belief that the zodiac was not known in India until the Greeks bought it. The reason for this objection is the fear that when I insist on finding it in the Rig Veda it would lend credence to the foriegn Indologists dating of the RV around 1500 BCE. ”
What shall one deduce from it. First of all, many people including myself don’t believe that zodiac was brought to India by Greek. We know and in fact, even many foreign authors could not prove that it did not exist in India independently. So, from where did you get this statement – obviously from few people.
Anyways, if you did not want to specify your date as 1500 BC, what is your date. None of the dates as speculated by many authors belong post Christ era. So my original question remains intact
Q1) “By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and when vedas were there before Christ era… …. these numbers can never represent vedic era. To simplify, we never had January, February in vedic times with January having 31 days etc…etc…
You have not yet answered the second question, I repost
Q2) Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
On symbol of capricorn, you have not yet understood the question and hasting to conclude that I don’t know about cardinal points and symbols.
So, I repost question 3 as you have not still answered
Q3) Where do you find symbol of capricorn in vedas? Please provide verse number from vedas.
You have tried to correlate Varuna with capricorn, there are many Gods, so 4th question
Q4) What about Indra, Agni, Maruts, Ashwini kumars etc.?
I would again reiterate where I began my last post “In an academic and logical discussion, one has to be focussed. I proposed in the beginning “Either present your understandign of cosmology independent of vedas or align it properly.”
So, would you please answer the real stuff.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
thea wrote:
Devinder has written: ‘…You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era…’ When or where have I asserted that 1500 BCE is the date of the Rig Veda composition? Then this colossal declaration from Devinder follows, and it goes to prove my point that this zodiacal lore, the basis of the ancient tradition worldwide, not only in Vedic India, is entirely lost on these latter-day astrologers/astronomers/pundits: ‘This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.” Also, add another question “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?” as raised to JC in another post.’ My Lord, does he not know that every Hindu Temple in existence worldwide reproduces the innermost meaning of Capricorn? Capricorn is the supreme North Mountain of the circle. In case he does not know, it is Makar in Hindustan, as in the Makar Sankranti. The main Gopuram of every temple is that very Mountain; more than that, once inside the seeker is lead to the sanctum sanctorum, the Cave within the Mountain. All he has to do is to read the scholarly work of Stella Kramisch, The Hindu Temple, published by Motilal Banarsidass to realise that Capricorn is the essence of every one. There are entire chapters regrading the Mountain in the north, the best of all, and so forth. And further, the Cave (garbhagriha) within that supreme Mountain. Unfortunately Kramisch also did not know the tradition otherwise she could have been far more incisive in her scholarship. The fact is that every astrologer knows the four Cardinal Points are Aries – Cosmic Dawn; Cancer – Cosmic Midnight; Libra – Cosmic Sunset; and finally Capricorn (north direction) – Cosmic Midday, the mountaintop where the Sun casts no shadows. I can quote endlessly on references to these facts, but how can one who knows nothing of these traditions appreciate them, and much less acknowledge them as true? Kramisch even describes the spout where the libations flow out as situated in the north corner of the garbhagriha done always as per scriptures in the form of Makar – that is, Capricorn. In Hindu lore the animal image is a crocodile/makar, elsewhere it is the goat with a tail of a fish. The message being conveyed is the amphibious nature of the symbolism. The Goat/fish is more to the point because it conveys the abyss and the heights in one connected symbol; but this is compensated for in Vedic/Hindu tradition by the Gods allotted to each sign/symbol: Varuna in the case of Makar, the God whose vahana in fact is a makar? If you read Sri Aurobindo’s description of Varun in his psycho-spiritual reading of the Rig Veda, The Secret of the Veda, there can be no doubt about the correspondence. I repeat, if these gentlemen do not know zodiacal lore, how can they even enter into a discussion with me? Though they do, each of their coments makes clear to readers the very point I am making: THIS IS A KNOWLEDGE NOW LOST IN INDIA. Therefore they go on endlessly with their respective ayanamshas, none of which can be effectively applied They are all speculative. They are relative, each one basing their calculations on points of reference that have no meaning, no stability and objectivity and vallidity TODAY: they are based on subjective surmises that takes us nowhere near the true way. My point: the Knowledge (veda) is lost. Let us engage in the POSITIVE exercise of re-instating what the ancients knew, and what has been preserved (as a strategy during passage through the Dark Age) in the Hindu Temple, where there is zodiacal lore everywhere. But if one does not know what to look for – well, then we have a problem!
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Dear Patricia,
Thanks for reading and acknowledging the efforts. If book is read completely, major part of research would explain how there is alignement of ancient and modern astronomy and would provide why it is called ayanamsa and not vishuwamsa. Major finds of the research are afterwards.
As far as your ideas of cosmology are concerned, if you call it out of spiritual awakening etc. , I don’t have any problem. Moment you want to relate it to vedas and logics or to say FACTUAL support, you just can’t escape the questions I have raised and unless you have answers, it is bound to fail as an alignment and can just exist as standalone.
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
patriciaheidt wrote:
Lori, Devinder gave us a link a few days ago to his book THE UNANSWERED. I purused the first few chapters: He has put a lot of effort into exploring and teaching about the Ayanamsa Puzzle – Various Ayanamsas, Roots and Pitfalls. In fact there are pages of different zero points, and so forth. That is a primary focus of his research; whereas, as you point out in your recent posting Thea and group see the zodiac as a script for transformation of the soul, the earth. Wouldn’t it be great if he could study The Magical Carousel and Commentaries? It really does depend on where you stand, to make your observations… patricia
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Madam Thea,
In an academic and logical discussion, one has to be focussed. I proposed in the beginning “Either present your understandign of cosmology independent of vedas or align it properly.”
Obviously your cosmology understandind is not in line with vedas. Instead of getting emotional again and again, why don’t you straight way answer my questions raised in my last post, I am reposting here:
By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era.
Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
I would advise you to think broadly. You are struck with God Mitra since you are eyeing your desired “Friend” in it, but at same time forget about the other Gods mentioned Indra, Varun, Maruts, Agni etc. What is your answer to those Gods, how you read them?
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
Also, add another question “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?” as raised to JC in another post.
regds
Devinder
thea wrote:
Jan wrote, ‘Devinder, it is disheartening to see that after reading Thea’s FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAl you can only write “I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later.” I find it insulting and dismissive. It means you have distorted the Power and Force behind her writing as ’emotional’, an adjective you have thrown out before. The beauty of the Knowledge of Akand Bharat and that image of Capricorn on her Body is awe inspiring and yet your first response to this extraordinary revelation is ’emotional posting’. How very strange.’ The patronising continues, alas, truly reflective of the Old Consciousness: it is an instinctive, atavistic response. Let’s leave it at that. Regrading the Capricorn/Makar map-symbol, after all the solid evidence of its contemporary relevance and applicability for India that I deliberately presented – full well expecting NO RESPONSE – how can we proceed ‘discussing’? You see, this for me is FACT. for others it falls in the bracket of – what? I want an explanation from our friends. How can they explain the FACT that this most ancient hieroglyph, the origins of which are lost in the mists of time (don’t try to pass it off as Babylonian!) describes the Indian landmass. They will cry COINCIDENCE, which is the convenient label scientists bandy about when confronted with these astonishing harmonies time and again. Therefore, I deliberately presented more via the birth dates and 25920. Again cavalier dismissal. When I discover these harmonies (page after page are presented in my books) I am left in a state of wonder and awe before the implications of such discoveries. These gentlemen experience no such thing! And this I find pathetic – what a sad condition to be in. That the Supreme Consciousness could arrange 12 births in perfect synchronicity with a pre-given formula, covering a century, down the line of Time, is not even considered a relevant part of the discussion. So, what else must that Consciousness do to make its FACTUAL PRESENCE and CONTROL known to the human species?
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Dear Jc,
Cool… I am expecting all these outbursts.. so I am cooler inside. Look at another emotional outburst by you.
Did you expect me to reply to Ms. Thea without reading what she wrote. I think that would have been just an emotional reaction to an emotional starting action….and would not have been fair to her.
Instead of all these bad feelings, pl. participate in the discussion with broad mind instead of mere assertions. Only then it might lead closer to FACTUAL.
Coming to the real discussion, You seem late comer to the discussion, so read all the posts from the beginning. And before aligning your cosmology to vedas, tell me “Where do you read the symbol and capricorn in vedas?”
regds
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
jc wrote:
Devinder, it is disheartening to see that after reading Thea’s FACTS NOT THE FICTION OF DENIAl you can only write “I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later.” I find it insulting and dismissive. It means you have distorted the Power and Force behind her writing as ’emotional’, an adjective you have thrown out before. The beauty of the Knowledge of Akand Bharat and that image of Capricorn on her Body is awe inspiring and yet your first response to this extraordinary revelation is ’emotional posting’. How very strange.
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Madam Thea,
Leaving aside your emotional outburst and referring pundits, nirayanis etc…, I would straightway come to the point.
By referring to numbers 2, 5,9 and 2 and then aligning to birth dates of Mother, Sri Aurobindo, yourself and one else, and then speaking vedic alignment in same breath, you are making big mistake. You must know that Christian era started from 1 AD and even if I take your date of Vedas, it is 1500 BC as per your own assertion. So, obviously 1500 before Christ era… And thus these numbers can never represent vedic era.
Next mistake you are doing is aligning Vishnu that I have already discussed in my other post to Arinaya while discussing 4 questions. And then you are talking of Taurus, Leo, Aquarius in relation to Vishnu, that also 4 manifestations in assumed cycle of 25920 years at 6480 years gap and FAIL to address how tropical zodiac is going to address this Taurus, Leo, Aquarius. In tropical zodiac, Aries position is always at equinox in the whole precession cycle, so obviously relevance of 6480 years to different signs can only be related to the Sun revolution that is not tropical in nature.
I would advise you to think broadly. You are struck with God Mitra since you are eyeing your desired “Friend” in it, but at same time forget about the other Gods mentioned Indra, Varun, Maruts, Agni etc. What is your answer to those Gods, how you read them?
This is the reason I say “all your assertions lack Factual support.”
BTW, I am not a pundit by caste and as per ancient scriptures, everyone is born Shudra by birth and it is with deeds, one becomes Brahmin, Kshatriya etc..
Your Nirayani friend or rather Your Nirayani Mithra,
Devinder (https://books.google.com/books/about?id=lFctCAAAQBAJ)
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Dear Arinaya,
Let us start from reverse since you have agreed on point 4.
4) I wud reply Madam Thea’s emotional posts later. But our agreement does not mean that it has to be the way you people are specifying as. It means we need to udnerstand right in logical/ academical manner and then realign.
3) Here also you have agreed that vedas don’t specify 25920 years. Why don’t you write details of what is your understanding of Vedic Maths rather than getting emotional on this? 360 days are 360 spokes, what does 9 has to do with this? And if you are still hell bound on 9, why 9? Why just 25920?, even 27000, 36000 are also divisible by 9?
2) Read Atharva Veda, 19.7 for nakshatras
1) RV 1.154 –
2-Wild beast was referred Lion by not Sri Aurobindo but by Wilson in his translation in 1854 AD that also rendered to Sayana and only in comments.
3-Same Wilson did not specify Bull for Vrshne. It is only Griffith who specified Bull…. actually Bull is out of sync in the whole verse.. It is not Vrishabh…..Bur VrshNe i.e. “showerer”
5-The third part “Priya” is totally out of sync as all the translators have rightly commented it as “the well loved” ….If at all someone is lookout for “Friend”, it could be “Bandhu” …….. Now aligning Bandhu to Aquarius since 11th sign is for friendship is all imagination to align the wrongly understood Bull in 3) above…… and what abt Scorpio?
regds
Devinder
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Dear Robert,
You can sort the issue of Hari Malla’s cosmology with Hari Malla. I don’t belong to it.
Instead of writing a lengthy post again and again with the contents similar in nature, why don’t you try these questions that I posed to Madam Thea:
1. Rigveda 1.154 does not have any Sanskrit word that can be translated as lion, bull or Friend. If one thinks so, please present the verse that spells out one of these words. Verses here are representing three steps that are related to the universe.
2. Vedas are centered on nakshatras. And you need to first understand and define nakshatra, if you really want to realign something.
3. You can not use modern constellation boundaries and moden assumed precession cycle of 25920 years,,,, and at same time speak of vedas in same breath. If you speak of the same, you need to present verses from veda that say precession cycle is 25920 years.
4. Tropical has its importance in ancient Indian texts and we need both. We might need improvements but we can’t ride any theory referring it to ancient texts without specifying the textual facts, understanding those facts and then aligning those facts with modern knowledge.
Til then, any theory lacks Factual support.
You wrote “I challenge each of them and all comers to show us how their approach and the knowledge it provides is in any way comparable to what I have listed above. ”
My reply: Your mere assertion does not prove anything. I am ready for an unbiased debate with anyone but one shall not say “This is X because I am saying this is X”… My arguments shall be purely based on logics and academics. My ideas are already listed in my book and whatever I have presented in my book is based on logical and academic support. In my next book, I wud even include how 4320K yuga scale was relevant. Only after understanding the ancient tone, one can relate it to the modern findings and look for a solution.
regds
Devinder
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