Study Circle with Thea

in Rosendale, New York, 18 April, 1994

   ‘In proportion as the surrender and self-consecration progress the Sadhaka becomes conscious of the Divine Shakti doing the Sadhana, pouring into him more and more of herself, founding in him the freedom and perfection of the Divine Nature. The more this conscious process replaces his own effort, the more rapid and true becomes his progress.  But it cannot completely replace the necessity of personal effort until the surrender and consecration are pure and complete from top to bottom.

‘Note that a tamasic surrender refusing to fulfil the conditions and calling on God to do everything and save one all trouble and struggle is a deception and does not lead to freedom and perfection.’

Sri Aurobindo

‘The Mother’



In this issue we reproduce a transcript of the audio tape of the study circle organzised by Aeon Group/USA in Rosendale, New York.  This was the final session, 18 April 1994.  It was conducted by PNB (Thea) who was on tour in North and South America during April and May of 1994.




In this paper which we read earlier, you talk about conscious collaboration in this process, this process of shift. My curiosity is about the role people like me play in that. I am interested in what your role is, but I am also interested in my role. From your perspective, how that conscious participation needs to take place?


Well, that’s probably the biggest question you can ask, because that’s the question most difficult to answer, in the sense that unless you are involved in it, it’s very difficult to perceive. Like the moments when you are faced with a conscious choice. And that does happen in the course of our working together, as anybody would be able to tell you. But on a wider scale, I mean, like for people out there, how would that present itself?

The whole objective of this work, and I would say of Sri Aurobindo’s work, is really that connection with the inner Divine, which establishes a particular contact which then operates through that individual; and then that individual becomes in the world a sort of nexus for forces, either attracted or repelled. And that is connected to a larger whole. So what we are working on right now – and we are really in the beginning stages of this process – is the formation of a very small nucleus. It is very small, I have to say it is not a very big connection. But the important thing at this stage is to make sure that what we are doing is the real thing and not contaminated, or diluted, or polluted, or… By that I don’t mean dogmatically, but I mean a certain alchemy of forces has to be the right one in order to be able to do this thing.

So what happens is you form this nucleus and then from there connections are made. Which would for example be this type of a group, and from there connections are made. But it’s a slow process. It’s not something that we can just open up and say, ‘Everybody come in and join.’ Because I know it doesn’t happen that way and I would be misleading people if I did say, ‘Well, it’s open for all’. I know it isn’t. And it’s not elitist, but it is something that has to be consciously experienced. It’s not a path of devotion as such, though that is an element in it. So it’s not something that you can just worship and then you are there. It doesn’t happen like this. This is knowing very carefully and meticulously what we are going toward, and what the whole world is going toward. This shift is something involving the whole world.

So, right now we are at the point of a nucleus and that has…I mean, if I am here now, or even if I had come earlier, it was because enough of that was already established which allowed this contact outside. Whereas previously it wasn’t permitted, it wasn’t possible and it made no sense. So it didn’t happen. Now this situation is taking shape with the formation of the Centre, the actual physical centre in India, and that is permitting this. Now from there, from that point then, people are becoming involved and of course their involvement is also a work on themselves. But at the same time it is a process of seeing this change in the world, not only in yourself, but in the world, seeing this consciousness operating and your conscious participation is partly that seeing, and partly your own collaboration with that and not any resistance to that. That will begin to present itself in your life in many, many ways, I can assure you. And unless you are, I can’t say instructed, but unless you are aware of what to look for, it will pass you by. But as you grow in seeing, as your capacity grows in that, it will be very clear the way it is working in your own life, the way it is connecting other things. And gradually this nucleus has to grow, and it has to…

Now, I don’t know if you have gone into the question of the Mother’s plan (of the Temple). You see these concentric circles here (points to temple’s floor plan). In the Mother’s plan of the chamber, you have these three circles, three concentric circles. That plan, that floor plan, sort of gives you an impression of the way this work is organised in the world today where you have a point, a centre, then you have a circle, and then you have a farther circle, and then you have a larger circle. Each one has a different degree of proximity to the light, let us say, but actually that ‘light’ means this central axis which casts no shadows really, which is perfectly aligned. And then progressively as you go out, you go out to the farther circle and there it is in the dark, but it is yet within this cosmos, this particular cosmos.

So, you could say, people who are out there belong to that. Or you have a group like Aeon Group which would be more or less the middle circle, the support system and also the relay. Like this, all connected in one work. Then of course you have an inner circle which is very close to the Centre, and in proximity. Now you cannot say that anyone of those is better advantaged than any other, because there could be somebody, for example, in this group who is actually in the other circle outside. Similarly in the centre, in the central group you may have somebody there; but usually it doesn’t happen like that because people find their places. But that is the point. You have different degrees, but nonetheless people involved, people that are consciously…When I say this plan of the room, I mean that is a conscious involvement. People who know what is happening on a certain level are able to participate.

So, I cannot give you an exact formula and say, ‘Look, if you repeat this mantra ten times a day…’ That isn’t the way it is. This is a work in the world. This is something that has to present itself within the circumstances of your life. The only thing is that inevitably you will be connected to this larger process, because otherwise it could be done like that and then there would be no point of me being here, or this work as it has been established. There has to be this beginning, this seed planted and then from there like an organic growth…It must be like that. So another thing is that when there is this nucleus, when there is that centre holding the process together, then the circumstances of your life and the world in general are able to organise themselves so that they are in harmony with that. Now, these can also be…they can be negative, they can be positive; and right now at our present stage, they are largely negative. But nonetheless, they serve that purpose, they serve this. So the advantage here is that the circumstances of life are able to participate in this; and this is where your conscious awareness comes in, where you can see that the negative also is very actively working for this. And this is the sense of making a nucleus where it attracts and draws these things, but always for the furtherance of this purpose.

It starts small and then it grows and then it has a larger connection, and actually this is the way the whole of the earth is going to be transformed ultimately. An interesting question that people usually have is, How is this change going to come about? Which in a sense would be connected to what you have asked: How is the change going to come about, because we see that it is quite appalling, I mean what is around us, and we realise that the mass of humanity certainly is neither searching for, nor interested in, nor capable even of any kind of progress. Well, as this grows and grows it simply pushes out, you know. And that is really the way it is going to come about where it pushes out and other things fall away almost by their irrelevancy. But for that there has to be some very solid foundations laid in order for it to really take place.

Right now we have a new world order so to speak, which is really not new at all. At the moment it’s only different forces scrambling to try to maintain their hold on what is really collapsing and has collapsed. And so there are these forces trying to, each one, maintain their hold and supremacy, whereas in actual fact that is dead and dying, but the new has not really manifested yet. So we call it a new world order, but it’s really the collapse of the old still.

So gradually of course this has to grow and it has to grow and then present an alternative which right now apparently does not exist. Now, there are different levels where this is happening. You have a level, you have the physical or the vital; you have various planes. The point is that now we are still very much dealing with a plane of a more subtle consciousness also. We are not exactly – I mean, we are manifesting this in the physical, but the work is largely occult to anybody who would be perceiving from the outside. Still my work in India, I mean, where I am  nobody knows what I am doing. Around me, where I have my Centre, they haven’t a clue because it seems all so ordinary. It seems that we are just leading an ordinary life; doing the things that everybody does, more or less; nobody can see, and yet there’s an extraordinary process going on of transformation and a foundation of something that never has been done before, I can assure you, never. And yet to appearances…And why? Because we are using certain channels, which are the channels of the material manifestation such as time, for example. So the things that are done are done within a particular harmony of time, therefore they are able to make an imprint on this evolutionary process and not otherwise.

And so to all appearances it seems like we are just doing rather ordinary things. Of course, it’s not like that at all. So your conscious awareness begins to grow in that respect, where you begin to perceive this, you see this process going on. But apparently no one else does, you know, and then of course the effect on your life is a tremendous widening of your consciousness. Almost immediately. The moment you really penetrate this, some very big shifts begin to take place and no longer can you be satisfied with anything that closes you in and isolates you. At a certain point I could predict what would happen, where even the question of my own personal realisation, yoga, begins to fall away and doesn’t have any sense anymore because you see this thing happening through you more or less. You see it there and it doesn’t really make much sense to aspire for a personal realisation. All of that becomes very old. It just seems like an old consciousness. These questions – you know, ‘What about me’, – just fall away. But then of course they have to fall away naturally because you cannot pretend to be there if you are not. But most often it happens without you being aware of it. You’re not aware that this no longer is a question for you anymore, because you are seeing this happening where you are carried along in it; and that is the only thing that matters, that you are aware that you are a part of this. There is this control. This is going on, and that in itself begins to be your own personal realisation. I don’t know if this has answered (your question) – you realise there is a difficulty in answering because as far as I know there has never been anything like this done before, so for me to explain certain things …They would make no sense. You would try to relate to certain paths or schools that you have studied, and really it would be impossible. You won’t find it there. So I am going to try to give you an idea, and I am sure you have in these classes already come to some idea of what it is.


Are you basically an active force working on the inner planes, or much more a receptive force. This language may not even be appropriate…


Well, let’s see. We’ll try to find the language.


Or functioning more in a transmitting of these shifts and energies, of the time energy. I just wonder when you talk about functioning – these concentric circles with you being a force at the centre, I am wondering how you affect all that’s happening and how that relates to all the other groups and forces who are speaking a parallel language and seemingly parallel work?


Well I don’t know what other people are doing. I know that I don’t find anybody who’s doing this. Because I really find that the quests, you know, most of the conventional paths, – I’m speaking about the good ones, not the falsifiers, and the frauds, they abound, but the true ones, the really highly realised souls, you know, like Ramana Maharshi, that type, the really serious people…That’s not satisfying because it doesn’t answer the questions here, it doesn’t resolve the problems. Not ‘answer the questions’, it doesn’t resolve the problems¸ we have.

So the point is that all of spirituality, I can tell you for a fact, until now, has been really pulling you away. I mean this is… However you look at it, they may camouflage it, they will tell you your life becomes more harmonious, you’ll live in harmony with this, you’ll do that. But the ultimate goal of every path has been to pull away from this; and finally not to attain birth anymore, that this is really… Like in the Christian tradition, a fall. And however they colour it, it will always come down to that. And if you confront people on these paths with this they will deny it, you know, they will say, No, this is to make your life more meaningful. But the meaning of it is always to remove yourself from it, whether it is to go to heaven, or whether you have Nirvana to the point where finally your consciousness is dissolved to the extent that there is nothing connecting you here anymore. That’s really the point in Buddhism.

So, here you have something very different. You have a complete reversal where you have to realise that HERE. Now this is the radical change and it is very radical. The only thing that comes close to this type of seeking, of course, is when you turn to psychology; but there you are developing the ego in order to fit into… This is something entirely different. This doesn’t resolve the problem we are talking about, it just accommodates. It accommodates, it’s not an integral total. So in terms of what we call spirituality, there is nothing. There has not been. And if there was, it was in very ancient times, during the times when the Rig Veda was composed and that means at least 2000 years ago. It may have been 5000 years, maybe much, much more.

So we are talking about something that is very new. Now, how do you go about that? You see, this is the point. Somebody may aspire to do this, but they don’t know the mechanism. They don’t know what happened. Why? Why did spirituality take this turn? What was it in the evolution itself, in the structure of the human consciousness that left this possibility? That made this really the only solution. So this is what you have to find out. When you find that out, then you can begin to look for the solution there. And then it becomes a very mathematical process.

Now my part in this, was to…,and I will tell you exactly because it was exactly that way. The simple thing that I did was to find this central problem. To discover this central problem and to proceed to resolve it. And so what that was was really this question of the central Void. Throughout my works you will see that I have it in for the void and I am always after that, trying to ‘fill the void’. Now this is where the feminine power comes in. You will see that about the time this shift took place and spirituality veered away, let’s give it about 2000 years, more or less, when it became definitive and the pattern, the ingrained pattern was the imprint. Well that was also when the worship of the Goddess of course began to decline, idol worship at the same time, because that is connected with the Goddess – irrevocably. You cannot have a worship of the Goddess without the idol, because it is form, you see, form, measure, these things. So, this all happened about the same time. It started consolidating itself in this manner. So what you had then is that by necessity then there was no other solution but to seek this kind of withdrawal and dissolution; and then, of course, this left everything on this plane quite in the hands of forces that are very destructive. And when you had that central void then you had the possibility of anything filling it up. You had usurpers, you had all sorts of things. So the point was then precisely the point, precisely to fill that yogically, to come to the position of ‘plugging up’ this thing.

How this translates itself is the very structure of our physical consciousness which is a vessel in which we work and which is very…which our consciousness is, you could say, very much conditioned, or vice-versa, our bodies are conditioned by this poise of consciousness. But the fact is that we have a tremendous limitation by our physical beings and that only so much is allowed, because if more did take place we would collapse and die. We could not sustain that kind of power. So what has to happen is that this realignment has to allow for a total transformation. Well, even your physical is insufficient then; so you cannot begin to talk about a change of that nature unless you talk about it INTEGRALLY. You cannot do it on one end, do it here, or even the vital. It finally resolves itself into a total process where the whole of it, and especially, finally, ultimately the very bodies that we inhabit must be structured differently. And they are being structured differently. I mean, they are gradually moulding to something else.

Now, you can find outer signs of this all over. In science, in medicine, everywhere, everybody is striving…Especially the work on the cells, biochemistry, molecular science… very interesting things that they are doing today. But they are only indications that other possibilities, many other possibilities are being made available now. So my work in this was just a very simple thing. I can tell you, it was yogically to understand what was the key problem and to begin to correct that. When I did that, and this had to be done in harmony with time because, you see, this is when it is not restricted to an individual and isolated. It is when you have that network, you have a means of imprinting on the totality; and for that you have to have a particular understanding, and you work with time. Now, this, at the same time, cannot be a mental idea. Well, I am going to choose a date and I am going to…You have to be a part of a whole process which time is really carrying forward. All right, having done that, then this operation set in motion, made a shift totally, and set in motion a completely different action.

I can describe this very accurately. I have done so in the VISHAALS; in the third volume of The New Way, which will be printed at some point. I am constantly describing it in the VISHAALS that I am writing now. What actually I did, – and it’s very mathematical, there is nothing, you know, fuzzy, or otherworldly. It’s something very, very mathematical. What it was, of course, was this realignment, this new alignment, this centering where no longer it’s a binary structure, which means tension and which means a central void, which is our normal condition. It means a centering and it means then a unitary system. And this is the big key. Once you have that, you have the possibility of a spheric action which means then you have the possibility of being a centre that holds, which means you are holding in harmony a series of circumstances which are all furthering that. They cannot not further it because they are held by that, you understand. Now, you can imagine that each person who would do that would become a luminous cosmos in himself, you see; and ultimately that is the idea of a new race, of a new consciousness. (It) would be these luminous consciousnesses that are operating in this way.

Now, in the beginning at our stage, to all practical purposes it looks very ordinary. It looks like…Well, these are ordinary people just… And yet you are the centre of something tremendous that is happening, but as I say, in the beginning this is not apparent. But you are connected to a series, to a play of circumstances which would not be possible if there was not that centre, and that point. So practically my work is that being that, having realised that, having done that I am able to perceive these things which nobody else can because perception from the centre is very different than from the periphery. In a nutshell, that is really what I’ve done, that’s all I’ve done. I mean, nothing so fantastic, but that.

HOWEVER! However, I am simplifying the matter. I mean; to get to that, first of all you had to live through a process that was virtually a death, and you had to remain in the physical dimension and not be pushed out into another. That is why it’s not anybody who can do this because you would simply die. You wouldn’t be able to have your consciousness contracted to a point, remaining here and not…Which is what death is, where you are pushed out. (That’s why they have experiences of going through tunnels and all, when they have these near death experiences.) So, remaining here and consciously sustaining that until that element, that realignment happens and the birth of that centre is there, is what is very difficult. People cannot…you of course have to have a contact with a higher power that takes care of that, or that you’re structured in such a way that you can. I realise not may people are; I mean, I don’t know of anybody else who is. There may be, I don’t know. But I only know that this is a very mathematical process. It’s nothing fuzzy, it’s nothing that cannot be explained very mathematically. By ‘mathematically’ I mean by a language that can withstand a certain kind of scrutiny within the parameters of this very work. It has to be, naturally. But it can be scrutinized like that. It’s not something that I can say, ‘I have done this’, and then you believe or you don’t believe. No, there are ways that it can be proven and constantly in my work and my writings I am giving (this proof). So I show you in terms of an individual, I show you in terms of nations, using India for example. There are phenomenal things that I have been able to show about India and the course of its history, all in the harmony of this same process. All following this same formula, you see. So my work has been to do that.

Now, in the context of Sri Aurobindo’s work and the Mother’s work, they dealt with particular levels, each one has dealt with particular levels. Then finally this comes to the Third Power, the individual, meaning the individual soul. From there you have to make the bridge. You have to connect this to the physical plane. This third plane is really located, let’s say it has affinity to, if you want to explain it, with the vital plane. And from there you must make this bridge, because this is then the bridge to the material. This connecting bridge. You can transform here, down here, but you have to construct this bridge then; and this is what I have done. So all of my work, all of this explaining, all of this is constructing that bridge which is linking those planes so that that power has a channel to be able to work in conscious instruments.

Now, consciousness of this is very important. It’s very important because otherwise the work would have been done long ago and the individual would be irrelevant if it wasn’t so. The individual instrument is the nexus of the whole thing. Without that individual conscious awareness you could not do this work, otherwise it wouldn’t have been necessary to go through this long, laborious process of evolution. So when we come to this level then we are really dealing with the individual, at which point we deal with these details of the process, at which point we deal with constructing this bridge; and then the process can begin to really take shape in the world. First is the centre, the point. Once that is established as it has been and as it is taking shape, then you can start this other. So my work has been to do this and it represents that Soul, it is the third power and therefore mythology has been such a central element because it is virtually the language of the soul and therefore it has played a tremendous role in this. I am sure you must have gone over a lot of this already.


In the diagram (the Gnostic Circle), I’d like to know why the bottom part of the inner triangle is not connected.


The 4.5.


That’s not connected?


Well, not the cross, between 4 and 5.


Oh, yes, that is fundamental. That’s the Void. This is the escape (laughter) and that’s very important! That’s a very important observation because all people who have dealt with the enneagram…There have been a number of schools…you know, the Gurdjieff school, and there are some others; I mentioned to you that Arica chap. He is using it and I don’t know how may other people now. They use the enneagram. None of them have connected it to time and if you do not see the relation with time, if you do not apply it to time and the connection with the calendar, the enneagram is useless, I’m telling you. This is what it is.

Now, none of these schools, from Gurdjieff all the way down, saw this. The moment that you do, you see a connected process. Now, they don’t. If you look at that you see that everything is emphasising this, everything is going…Now, once I point it out, it’s very obvious, isn’t it? Yet the whole diagram is pointing to that. Now, you can look at it in terms of the birth, the birth channel, so the fact that this is left in this particular way, with no connection, is the indication of the critical nature of this point. And that all spirituality, for example Buddhism…this is the point of Buddhism. Where it is really nirvana and the escape. They won’t look at it like that, for them it’s a liberation, but in actual fact then this is the way out of the material universe, let’s put it like that. So that experience I was describing where this contraction, contraction, contraction to a point…if you are not anchored there (at the 4.5), then that’s death, and you are gone.

In fact in astrology then you have the sign of death here, (indicates the third quarter of the wheel) you see. This whole quarter is very critical, this mental quarter. This is all the critical portion, starting from here (the 4.5). So that is why this is the reversal. If the right anchor, if you are anchored, if you have the right thing, then the energy release, – because there is energy that is released at this point, – if that energy is released, this carries you up and up and up. Otherwise you get up here and you succumb to death, and you fall back. You get up here (the end of the third quarter) and the process finally ends in physical death, which is the eighth sign of the zodiac, Scorpio.

Now the eighth sign, Scorpio, is not the full wheel. So people must have asked themselves at this point why there are four more signs. What does it mean? Death is the eighth, but there are four more signs. Where is that experience? But of course if you don’t see the zodiac as being one connected process, like this, then it doesn’t matter, the eighth could be the first, could be anywhere. But if you see that it’s a progression and you are going from one, to two, to three, to four, to five, and there is an actual yoga, a process of transformation described here, then you look at that and you say, ‘Well, the eighth – where is the ninth then?’ I mean, if the eighth is death, what happens in the ninth? Where is all this taking place? And of course, this is a key feature because if your consciousness is dissolved at this point, then you never make it up here. On the contrary, you have to accumulate energy, you have to gather energy, you have to know the process to be able to do this. Otherwise in effect you cannot make it up, you cannot experience that unity and the rest (of the signs/stages).

So this not being connected is very, very important because it is that way out, or it is the dissolution of whatever impedes you from making this journey; and it is that release of energy which gives you the impulse from there on. Otherwise in normal terms this describes the evolution as it is where spirituality until now has always left this way out. We either go to heaven or to hell. In other words, what it is doing is impeding the concentration of power here in the physical to permit you to continue on this Earth the journey. It is allowing you a possibility of dissolving a very critical mass that you need in order to be able to continue.

So now you look at that, you look at the Enneagram and you see right away the message. You see that it is indicating this, all the lines are going like that, you know. Very important. Anybody then will tell you. Everybody will be able to tell you about the 4.5. Incredible! You know, your fourth and a half (years). So what is it then, but in terms of the larger process this is what it is, you see. It’s not connected because it is a void. It is either filled by that centre, by that point that holds, or it becomes the void because your consciousness chooses the path of dissolution (you know the word nirvan means dissolution), – chooses either that or it is held together and the birth of the Point takes place. And here then this would be equivalent to the One, the Son, that male Child, you know, in mythology – where he is born, you see. And this would be his critical point. And this is really like the birth channel. These labour pains, you know, and out from there comes this. And if it doesn’t happen there, it doesn’t happen anywhere. I mean this is…you cannot…at some point you have to deal with what that signifies.

Now all of this I think must be still very abstract for you. That is, in the beginning, because you are just now being flooded with a lot of knowledge that has been the result of lived experiences, this is coming at you just now as abstract knowledge. But it isn’t like that. I mean, this can be applied to your own life. And even if you go back, as you gather more knowledge about this, you go back and you look at your own lives and then you will be able to locate things happening according to this process. And it would be very interesting to look at yourselves in your 13th ½ year, 22nd ½, 31st ½ and so on, 40th ½, 49th ½, and just see what the condition of your life was like. You will often find this sense of shattering, of dissolution going on, a process of disintegration, you know.

Now, when you have a contact with a centre, because if you are not centred, let’s say, how do you get by? That is the point of a work like I do. I mean, being in contact with that is the anchor. That’s precisely it. Now in practical terms, how do I provide that? I provide that by not allowing people these escapes, these deviations, and keeping them anchored within this, you know. How that takes shape – for each one differently, so I cannot tell you in what way it would because for each one it depends on the circumstances of their lives. But that is very important, you have the contact; and you see therefore the third point is here, before you reach this (the 4.5 Orbit). So this is where the contact is made with that. You can within your own…with the inner Divine within, but of course for most people it’s very difficult to make that contact to the degree that it would actually function in a full fledged process like this. Often it is easier for people to have an outside support in those moments. But this is the explanation…So, why it isn’t connected is, of course, fundamental. It’s fundamental.


Is it also an entrance to the core, or is it only an exit?


Well, but the entrance, I don’t think that’s really the term that could be…no, I don’t think you could look at it like that.

No, because that isn’t the…I mean, in terms of entrance you begin at the zero point and your entrance is there. So I don’t think it is exactly that, I can’t imagine in any way where that would pertain. What it means is that consciousness, that conscious awareness, that nucleus experiences attacks for this process of disintegration, but really what you are getting rid of is a lot of useless baggage that does not allow you then the rise. And here it’s just very graphically given, but you must understand that you apply that to circumstances of your life. Or it’s not applied.. You see it in circumstances of your life, where…Right?




Where you cannot, this baggage must either be shed…but if you shed it by just simply that dissolution without anything holding you…You had that point. You had already a grasp of something when you last time went through that; then if you don’t have that of course this process just shakes you up and nothing comes of it basically. But having that then it’s something very different. Then that’s a conscious process where these things are shed, and the baggage and the weights – these are what I call encumbrances – the encumbrances which actually slow you down. And this is a very important element this speed of consciousness, because everything finally will revolve around this speed of consciousness. The 4.5 really attacks that, this getting rid of encumbrances. But if it is too much pressure, then we escape. Then we choose the beyond, the nirvanas, the heavens.

Now, you have to understand the human consciousness, how it’s a question of your goal, you see. And how this works is if you posit the finality of your quest in a heaven, let’s say, and this colours your participation in life, inevitably, therefore this energy that I am talking about either becomes accumulated or concentrated in a particular way, or it doesn’t. It is channelled differently, so it will colour everything, and it will also colour the whole process that you are involved in. The intensity of the process, the whole thing will be diluted. So if a yogi’s goal is to reach a trance state…and pull away and away, that will affect this play of circumstance of which his consciousness is the central point on earth. It will affect that by this diminishing of the power of concentration which you need in the physical in order to attain a transformation here.

So therefore it is very important where you’re pointing to, you see, because that will affect either the way you deal with all sorts of circumstances, or in more subtle terms this question of energy accumulation which is really what is going on here.

I mean, we are really always talking about energy. But it is very difficult for people to understand that and so we call it the consciousness, the new consciousness, but really you are dealing with an alchemy, with a play of energies and how to arrange, shift, do whatever, and extract more, release more, because ultimately to attain that transformation you have to have more energy at your disposal which you do not have right now. And you do not have it also because you cannot contain it. So the process is really very integral for each person, very spheric. You have to go gradually. All the parts have to be worked on in order for this to be able to take place. You cannot suddenly give…I mean, I cannot zap you with something. That would be useless. You would feel good, you would have a great experience, but it would do nothing and, on the contrary, may harm you rather. So that is not what happens here. That’s why this gradual seeing is always working on that. Is making the very instrument that you are develop in such a way that you are able…You are never surprised here, you know. In the sense that…impacted with something that you cannot contain, because really it is a flowering from within. So, as this grows it is allowing you to make these shifts in you. So in terms of paths, for example, there is no path safer than this is. You are never done violence to from some outer imposition of somebody else’s realisation. It’s always actually…the actual thing is just a drawing from within; and this is a very important element because that is the channel and that is the human soul.

You see, the soul is really the bridge that I am talking about. So when I say ‘constructing the bridge’, what I mean is that I am just opening, making this available, this transiting from one source to this. So that is really what’s going on. Now, I can also say that in terms of an evolutionary imprint here, an evolutionary mechanism, we know very little about the way the soul operates. Most spiritual paths are not dealing with that at all because the soul’s purpose is really this question of a creation in matter. So, for a spiritual realisation you don’t have to be bothered about all of it…It is only when this happens and when this connection is made and you are dealing with matter, – therefore the feminine principle, you see, therefore the myths, therefore all of this. Then the soul is the channel for that. Without that, in the spiritual planes you really ignore it, because in effect the soul outside the body is pointless. It is that mechanism that as an individual you are given to make this connection.

So, most schools…Really, even though we use that word all the time, soul, the psyche and all, very little is really known because it has really, until now, not been able to operate freely. And especially over the last 2000 years it has been really squashed, you know. Veiled over, especially with the rise of organized religions. I mean that was the last blow, you know, to THAT.

So, in the mythic age of course that was very much alive, though not fully operative, if you know what I mean. It’s only now that we have…Then this brings us to another point, you see, you have three, so you have the Transcendent, the Cosmic and the Individual. Now, when you isolate any one of these their own power is diminished in terms of manifestation. It’s only when you finally get the integral that each one of these can show what it…show its stuff, you know. You cannot otherwise. So now, when we come to the third point, after this has been worked out and this has been worked out and this, then you see a dimension of the soul operating in the universe in a way that was never seen before, never possible before. And it is now through this channel then that the transformation on Earth (is done).

Now, remember that the Earth is the third planet, so the Earth is the natural home for this process. So we are really very privileged to be here for this reason: that we can participate in this conscious process. I don’t want to speculate and say what people are doing in other solar systems, I can only say about this one very definitely that this planet we are on is especially harmoniously placed to house a creation that is able to consciously be an expression of this Power. Meaning the spark of the Divine in creation, in material creation.

And then this is where time comes in because time is really the channel from the soul to make this web. So time…you cannot separate the two. Now in spiritual paths that say, you know, time is irrelevant, and of course we must go beyond time, they are saying the same thing, that the soul is irrelevant. But most of them don’t know that. They don’t know it because they don’t know these mechanisms. But this is a fact. That is why we use this question of time, this question of measure.

All of this converges on the feminine power, all of this, and the mother principle, the Goddess, however you want to term it. But it is the feminine power, the Shakti, as we would call it in India. The Shakti. But even there there are many levels of understanding, you know, many levels. But when you come to a material creation, you come to form, the form of things, then of course the feminine power is operative. And for form you need time, therefore. You see, for the gestation of form it is time really that evolves form. So all of these are connected to the soul in manifestation. But it is not fully operative unless the other two have incarnated, those powers that are able to draw the…like Sri Aurobindo with the Transcendent, you understand. And he worked very definitely on that plane; and then the Mother in the Cosmic. And of course the result of it was she gave us this plan of a temple. It was the Cosmic Temple which gave us the whole key of the cosmic manifestation. Now there too she did this very quietly. She wasn’t proclaiming it. Only somebody who came along and understood it, was able to say, ‘Oh, but this is perfectly in harmony with her role’.

Now, you will see that most people in the Ashram haven’t a clue of this; and when they were there with the Mother they probably didn’t need it because in any case the whole thing wasn’t complete so you weren’t able to really see it unless you had all the pieces, unless this thing was whole, and these pieces…But nonetheless, whether they knew it or not, the Mother did what she had to do. And her final gift to humanity was that plan which said, ‘This is my legacy and the totality of my yoga, everything I have done is in that blueprint.’ So if you had the knowledge you could understand it, if you didn’t, you didn’t. But it was given. She fulfilled her role as the cosmic principle to perfection, absolutely to perfection; and then the other comes.

Now, the same thing. But none of this could have been known until all the pieces had finally come together, so it’s understandable that nobody did know. I mean, how could they, you know? You go over what Sri Aurobindo and the Mother have said and you will see that they are constantly indicating this. They were indicating. They were giving hints all the time, the Mother and Sri Aurobindo, but even they were playing it out, you know. So it needed time, quite frankly, because everything had to be measured in time, had to be in harmony with time. And that is what happened.


From what you were saying about time and that connection to the void…I was wondering what the measurement of time is. Because aren’t there different measurements of time? Different chakras experience time differently? If you are having a good time, it’s like time speeds by. Your experiences of time are so different from the mystics. What struck me was when you said ‘the void’, because my understanding has been that when they said there was no time or space or distance, it was that they were going beyond the 3-D reality but not necessarily to escape. Maybe I am misunderstanding something.


Yes, I realise that…that, you know, you go into a certain… Just take the dream, the ordinary dream state: you dream and then in a second you have had a whole dream that seems to have taken a minute or two or whatever. No I’m not concerned with anything like that because that depends on what density you are dealing with. You go into a subtle plane and you have these experiences. What I am talking about is the finality, the final material manifestation and what connects us all. What is it that regulates our lives so that we are a collective society here and not everybody off on their own. I mean, it’s clearly the time element. It’s clearly (that) we are functioning within time as a civilisation, as a society. So it is within that context that this thing is playing itself out. It’s not somewhere else up there. You don’t have to remove your consciousness and go into a trance and then experience ‘another time’. That’s not relevant right now. The important thing is that…Well, I can give you very specific examples where the year, the day. Exactly, you know, and within your own lives. Now you may experience an acceleration of time, you may experience on another plane something. But in what way is that affecting your life here? In no way at all.

So, what you want is the experience that is pertinent to the body you are inhabiting, where you are inhabiting it, the society in which…Now, in order for this nexus to operate and connect, this is the way it does it. Something that regulates us and in which we are all involved, like it or not. We are born into this planet, we have these time phases, we have…And this is really a very, very simple method which brings us all into a certain type of harmony. Like it or not, you know. We are obliged to function in this; and this is where the manifestation, the transformation is seen. It really doesn’t…I mean, I am aware of this sort of thing…Every night you dream, you are experiencing a different time. What is experiencing that though? You see, the moment you make the connection with the physical you reenact that within this time frame, you see, whatever it is that you have experienced on another plane. Nonetheless, when you translate that, it comes within that instrument, again it is brought within this same harmony.

So, they have to show me then that this experience of time, timelessness, accelerated time, or no time, has some bearing here. Actually it doesn’t. It doesn’t really change anything here. And in fact, none of them have been able to give a method by which those experiences could change something. And when you go into these paths and you go into what they are doing, actually you will inevitably find that the finality of it is no birth, I can tell you. Work out your samskaras, work out your karma, work out all this to come to the point of no birth again. Ultimately that is what they are doing.

No, that’s not what we are talking about here. This is something that…Therefore it can look very banal. It can look like you’re not doing anything, because in effect you are dealing with this plane. You are not going off. You’re not spinning off. You can do that too, you can have that too, but you will find ultimately that it doesn’t enhance in any way your capacity of seeing. It has no relation to it. If you have read my works, for example, you will see that there is probably an accumulation of knowledge there that I doubt anyone else has done in such a short span. The quality of the knowledge, everything…And never, never, never at any time did I lose consciousness, did I go into a trance, did I experience another time dimension. Every single thing that came, came right here, right here. And this is what is important. This is where we have to do it. It’s with this instrument.  Remember your instrument is very important. It’s colouring all of that, you know. The structure of your consciousness is what is allowing you to experience certain things. So the more there is this pulling away by whatever means, the more you are diminishing your capacity to deal on this plane.

You take India, for example. India is a perfect example of what happens when you lose that connection, which they lost some 1500-2000 years ago, more or less, and the country just went down and down and down on the physical plane. So, I mean as a country, because this pertains…it’s individual, it’s in terms of nations also, you see what happened. So now you have many sages there. Wonderful. They are experiencing fantastic planes of consciousness, but it had no effective power on the physical any more. And that is where we are living, playing it out. And so look what happened. Absolute chaos and anarchy on the physical. Overtaken by forces that are very destructive, destructive of the planet itself, you see.

Yes, this is fine. Individually some people were experiencing some very interesting things, but it had no…So it brings us to the point of this particular work. I can affirm that if a person is not interested in this direction of things, they will not be interested in this path because it is oriented toward that. Sri Aurobindo said it umpteen times, you know, a million times that his work is different. It’s a different goal. It’s a different direction. It’s to bring the Life Divine here. And he went on and on and on. The only thing is that he never got into the nitty-gritty. You can say that, but what does it mean? How? How do you do this? So, their’s were the first stages of that, the integral yoga, preparing the individual consciousness so that it could participate in this. And always this question of integrality, integrality. The integral approach was very important. And then the Mother comes and she begins to organise – to gather, I would say – those forces together on the cosmic plane, in such a way that they could be manipulated then to cooperate with this. And then finally you have a plan. Organising a cosmos. This question of a new axis…And when she was saying that this was the future realisation, this is what she meant. She described it, this new axis, new alignment. But all right here. And the key in the temple to time is our time here. It’s not an experience of another time, which I am telling you you’re doing all the time. You are having that constantly, you know. And it is not a question of your experience, – like if you’re happy time flies. That is when we are in the dimension of the relative, you know. Yes, that is relative and it may be important, but we are talking about something absolute.

So, you look at it in that way. India as a nation presents that activity of the spiritual elite of the country. And it was sizeable. India on that level is tremendous. I mean, the quantity of sages and…you know it is so prolific in that respect. Really that is what makes the country tick, beyond a doubt. But the fact that they took that direction a couple of thousand years ago is what has left the nation where it is now. There’s that split on the material plane, you see it, the impossibility to cope. Because it could only cope (by means of) that force, you understand, mainly because that is the kernel of India’s destiny. We have to call it ‘spiritual’ for a lack of another word. But really what it is, is what Sri Aurobindo calls the supramental power, really quite different from the spiritual. This is something else now. This is something that is operating in matter and cannot be disconnected from it.

So these questions become again irrelevant when you start dealing with the real newness of this work. They become irrelevant because…they are just irrelevant. They’re not wrong; they’re not…they just don’t pertain any more because your direction is different. You are moving toward something very different. Therefore I say you can have that, or you cannot, it doesn’t matter. Other things become important and need to be focussed on.

And all of these sages, all of these mystics, – nothing has of course changed anything here. Rather, it seems to have been getting worse all along. So the work of this particular group, of the people that work with me is something else. It is to bring about this change, and not in fantasy, you know, because every Indian godman or woman walking around is telling you that they’ve got the key, the answer. They are going to change the world, you know. You follow me and you’ll see. It will all change. But they have been walking around for an awfully long time and nothing really is happening, nor are they really able to explain in depth the whole process of what’s going on. And I know them, I’ve seen them, and I’ve had contact in the course of my work, and I can tell you that there are a lot of claims made, but very little has been done. Now, I don’t know, I’m sure all of you have had contact with these things so I don’t need to tell you.


I’m thinking about the soul as a bridge and when the body dies the soul continues to be a bridge again.


In a rebirth?


Yes, yes.




It comes, it returns with what it had accomplished or…become in a former life. Comes back to be reworked again?


Now, this is something that I have different ideas about, (…you could expect that). But I really feel that a lot of what people say, what has been done…There is a lot of fantasy there. And there are very many reasons why there is fantasy, but the crux of it is yes, yes, we are dealing with the immortal element in the human being. However, there too it is totally irrelevant because you don’t remember a thing of what happened before. And there’s no way that you can be certain that if you do remember that memory is yours or is not plucked from some cosmic memory bank which exists there and you can tap those things. And most people do who are having these experiences. They are picking up something that is really imprinted out there. I mean, all of this is very complex to explain. The fact is that we know nothing about the instruments that we are, the receptive instruments that we are. How we can function. So all that we know is that when you die you forget, and you carry no memory with you. So what happens then is that you come back again and you have to virtually start from scratch. Whatever, however you want to fantasise it, however you want to justify, however you want to…you are faced with a number of years in which you are a perfect fool. And whatever you did in the past seems to not be able to help you one iota here.

Now this is the condition of the mortal human race. That death that is a sleep. That puts you to sleep and puts all these layers to sleep. Yes, yes, you do have in that contraction process that is death, all of this, let’s say. You are going through an intense 4.5 where everything is…all of that is being shed and you come to this compression and this of course lives on and is indestructible and immortal. But you have no way of knowing this. You die, you forget, because all those layers of your consciousness that could remember, where memory is stored, are dissolved and you have just this distillation process. That’s it. Now, while this is going on we are a race in Ignorance, capital ‘I’, cosmic Ignorance. While we are subjected to this process we cannot say that we are supramental beings or anything of the sort, because we must succumb to this process of death, which is a sleep and which puts you into this state of oblivion, where…I mean, mercifully so the way things are right now. You wouldn’t be able to bear it. But the fact is that, yes, your soul…it lives on, it reincarnates, it gathers again around itself the elements for a vital, mental, physical, – all these sheaths, let’s say, it gathers, and then you take birth. As it goes through these planes in its descent it does gather the elements; but, you see, what you really want some day is to immortalise all of that. You want to be able to leave this plane consciously, like Sri Aurobindo did, for example, where it was a conscious process, conscious.

Now, we are moving toward that in the sense that we are gradually acquiring abilities to be able to be more conscious in these transitions that we have. But right now it doesn’t matter one iota what you did in the past, or who you were or what…because it serves no purpose. So I never dwell on that. I mean, while it is not a conscious memory, while it is not something that you can really deal with, the important thing is, deal with this that is right now and that will make all the difference in what is to be and what has been in the past.

So believe me, there is no memory of that yet. Yes, there are some psychic memories but those are very, very, very rare when they do come up, you know. And of course what you have mostly is something like an intuition, a feeling. Something the soul is then…some kind of remembrance on that level which is in a sense guiding you, or better yet, attracting to you what you need. Really it’s like magnetism, a process of magnetism which attracts. That’s really how it operates, where in this lifetime you are the nexus of this operation. But this is all unconscious, you understand, and that’s the problem. This unconsciousness, this sleep. Most of your energies are asleep.

So, how to awaken that within the instruments that we are? How to awaken that? We can philosophise no end about the nature of the soul, and that it is immortal and that there is reincarnation, but in effect it’s quite useless for us because…And therefore, why is it that we are put to sleep like that, because in any case we are not in a condition to be able to deal with total consciousness yet. The whole…It has to be transformed before or together with the whole of the conditions on Earth, your field. You do a yoga in a particular field and that whole field has to be congenial to the experience. This is why it is necessary that the whole, this is why at this stage of evolution it is no longer possible for one individual to do this. There has to be a process that is changing everything at the same time. You have to have a field in which…So when I talked about that nucleus I was talking about a reduced field which was made congenial for that experience. And that was very important to do, you know.


Through readings and personal work I have been doing for 29 years through a number of different paths, several paths, more traditional paths, I am particularly interested in your focus on what is happening in the body, the return to the embodiment; also the relationship to time. The idea of being in the presence of a Divine Being, what does that mean?


We give it these names because we don’t…We have to use these terms because how to distinguish somebody who’s obviously operating on a different…within a different context. And it’s like that. But I think I explained some of what this difference is when you asked the question before. It is necessary to have that though. And of course I realise how necessary it is because there were certain things that could not get done unless you came with a particular consciousness already. You would not have been able to sustain, for example, that initial experience that I was telling you about. Nobody would have been able to sustain that, so you had to come already with a consciousness…Thereafter it’s different. I mean, thereafter that possibility is open then. But to open that, to do that first filling of that Point, I realise that it would not have been possible if I was operating with the ordinary powers, you know, open to a person. I don’t think so. I think that requires a particular type of embodiment for the initial stages.

In other words, there had to be an embodiment of each of these powers, these three, which is the explanation of reality, of the creation, of the universal manifestation. It is this trinity. This sacred triangle. It’s really this Transcendent, Cosmic and Individual. This is it. So you had to have these embodiments, and I can tell you also that you didn’t have that in any other Age, at least I don’t think up to this point, in a period of maybe 50,000 years. This has never happened because we have not reached the stage where this was necessary, this kind of triune powers coming, because they were each to represent…What does that ‘represent’ mean? It means dealing with the forces of those dimensions, and this then…being able to carry out this work. It really is the descent, quite literally. So, yes, it is necessary for that; I mean, without that it cannot take place. And then we go on from there. But that doesn’t diminish everybody else’s work, you know. That only facilitates…Clearly all the knowledge that has come…it’s not possible unless you are centred, seeing from the centre. I know it’s not possible for others to do that.

But it goes very fast. You know, once that is done you see that you are just removing veils, so then everybody is in a position to see quite a lot more clearly. And then once you have been, let’s say, initiated into that, you can’t go back again…I mean, then everything else becomes very shallow, or partial, fragmented. Once you have had an opening to this, I have noticed that people rarely are able to then close it out and say, I don’t want anything to do with it. No, it’s something that has been removed and you can no longer look at anything around you in the same way. It is impossible.


Would you tell them a little bit about the dynamic aspect of it. You just touched upon that a bit…once you get involved with this work everything else has a dead quality to it. You know it’s finished. It’s a path but that there is nothing dynamic or active about it. I have told you a little about the experience of seeing all the time, particularly from Patrizia’s experience of time and seeing things occur on certain dates that just leave no doubt at all that you are involved in this, and participating.


Well, I find it tremendously exciting. I mean, at Skambha in India there is never a dull moment. Because things are happening so fast and what that is is simply that you are in a position to appreciate the dynamic aspect of creation and how it is a part, an integral part of everything with no separation any more. So therefore you have that sense of dynamism, simply because that’s the whole point. You have that sense of everything then being dull thereafter.

The becoming is the big key in this work and therefore Sri Aurobindo said that the becoming was the most important aspect of our incarnation, because he understood that all spirituality of course had dealt with Being. The becoming, movement, the Shakti, all were set aside and of course then you had the poise of that peace, but it wasn’t a dynamic peace. It was peace somewhere there, disconnected. Then you had that same peace meaning the immobile amidst the mobile, meaning you are in that, but that peace is brought down here and it is experienced within dynamism, within the dynamics of it. So if you don’t have this kind of key that helps you to perceive, it means nothing. You are constantly cutting it out. It’s interfering with your realisation. But whereas here it’s just the contrary.

Now, the whole purpose of The Tenth Day of Victory was really to show this process where I was simply thrust, you know, in the middle of this; and this was in Rome. I hadn’t a clue about anything and the Mother just grabbed me. That was it. But what was it showing me, all the time? I was never allowed to pull away. Always made to see that power working, the 9, the 6, the 3, always, always, always, constantly reminded, never allowed…So therefore it became a power in everything, it was in everything, it was in everything. I mean, therefore everything became so dynamic…Where were you going to go? Why were you going to go somewhere else when you could see it right there. Not only right within yourself, but the whole of creation was carried by this Force. There are certain portions of that biography where I am describing how it was working through the Mother, how the letters, if you remember, all those 9’s…Something like that happens and you are changed forever, you just cannot ignore this any more. You cannot cut it off anymore. I will tell you, you get to a point where you are feeling rather impotent. And there were certain realisations that I had when I was in Pondicherry. I remember plunging deep, deep, deep, down, down, down, because there was all that trouble over the Matrimandir, those architects, and all that. And I thought, where do they get their power? I mean, how can they really obstruct the Divine Mother? How is it? So this plunge yogically within, within, going into that darkest…into the core of matter. Going down and there, at the heart of the darkness really, there was that luminous seed. That was the first real seeing of the mechanism of the Supermind, that golden seed in the deepest depths of everything, that centre, that point and this was how time operated, how time could have this control…

But then I remember, coming out…and there was Persephone connected to that. I remember really living this chariot and the chariot was, you know, this drive of the chariot…This wasn’t a vision, this was a lived experience. It wasn’t vision. But anyway, whatever, the horses there were this Ignorance; and they were blind, you see, but all the power was there. They had the power, but blinded and carried by that. So what happened? The upshot was that when this was over, well, for days I just couldn’t look at things around…I mean, I would burst out laughing. Everybody looked like little puppets, you know, they were all moved… And of course the self-importance of the human being is phenomenal. He thinks he’s doing it all and he’s of course just a little puppet. He’s doing nothing. But you know I was in a very funny state then because I would suddenly burst out laughing. You know, it was really rather embarrassing.

What I mean to say by this is that I was always driven to see this power right here, like this, in the world, everywhere, and never allowed anything else. So, what was this? This is the Becoming. This is it. So then that Becoming, every movement of it, every second of time was carrying it further, and further, and further, you see. And then it was realising what Sri Aurobindo had said, ‘The becoming is the purpose of our existence.’ This is what we have to realise. The whole focus of our quest is there.

Now he never went on to elaborate on how that was going to be done, you know, but he stated, ‘This is it.’ So dynamics, you want dynamics, this is the meaning, that’s what it’s all about. And this is the way it’s done. Then of course everything else becomes a bit insipid. You can sit in meditation, you can have, you know, experiences and all, but when you come out, what? What?


It separates you, but this seems to bring you right into it, simultaneous experiences of seeing it.


Yes, that’s the goal. That’s it. The lived experience, you know. These are just words, they are words but they are tremendously pregnant words. I mean, if you really get to dissecting…It’s like a scientist, you know. In spirituality you have to be like that too. Indians are like that. The Indians have had the capacity to dissect every path minutely. Everything is worked out almost mathematically and it’s unlike any other people I have ever known. And even today they are so good in science because traditionally they have had this.


I find this whole concept of the Gnostic Circle as exciting as when I was first exposed to chemistry. The atomic theory…shell, after shell, after shell and so many electrons in each shell and the last shell – what spaces were available for other atoms, electrons to come in and how it affected everything.


Yes, that network.


It was a structure that was just built into everything around us, our body, the metal. Why is it shiny? There’s a reason, because of the number of electrons in the outer shell. So many things like that. It seems to be as graphic, as grounded. But it’s all structured and everything all falls into place.


That’s right, that’s right.


(After a break)


(0n the contact with the Mother.) Well, physically in India when I got there…But before,…she drew me there, guided me there from Rome by a process of yoga which is described in this book (The Tenth Day of Victory), and I think it’s going to be published now…


Do you still have a connection with her at that level?






Oh, yes. That was something that was established, or unveiled, as we say. But it continues, it’s not something I have to think about. It is a fact. It just never changed. In fact it was such that going to (the Ashram)…You see, I had this idea, because I was very stupid then, going there…I was going to be physically (close to her), you know. And of course that was nonsense, because that was totally irrelevant. And it really changed nothing. So therefore when she left her body it changed nothing, you know what I mean. It was already established in such a way that there was no shift at all, you know, at all, at all. But of course at that time I wasn’t aware of all of these things, but I was aware to the extent that I knew that it had changed nothing for me at all. The whole process was arranged in such a way that I would not have that problem, you know, of having lost the Mother, so to speak. It wasn’t like that because I had that whole experience of preparation in Rome where she was there in that way.

But you do go through phases like these. You don’t remain in these kind of ecstatic states. You don’t because you needed that for a particular purpose. Then you go on. Then of course it went into the phase of the knowledge, of receiving knowledge. By receiving I mean not transmitted, like channeling, not that: planting a seed and then that seed took shape in my own consciousness of the 3, you see. Therefore I was able to contribute my thing, but it was all coming from her. This was clear. She was planting the seeds in my consciousness and I was then evolving them. Then I would wake up in the middle of the night with this experience and then go on writing. But I was always aware that she was planting those seeds in those last 2½ years when she was passing all of this on, in the last portion, those 2½ years, when I was literally dragged there and put through all of this, you see. Obviously she was getting ready to leave and she had a lot of work to do before then and so I was working like crazy, and did it. But, you know, we had to respect this sort of time schedule. It was very important.

When she was in the physical it wasn’t transmitted like that. It would have been impossible then. And the conditions in the Ashram were such that it wasn’t…And that isn’t the way it’s done, because I am telling you it is a question of putting a force and then that has to take shape, otherwise it would be a denial of the individual instrument, you know, and again a violence. It’s not that, and in this I speak for everybody hereinafter. That is the way it works. This channelling, all of that is nonsense. It is planting of seeds, or force of inspiration, or whatever. And the individual has to give a body to that. Then that is the beauty of the individual soul, in individual incarnation. That is the sense of the multiplicity, that everybody contributes their own, you know. And this tremendously prolific creation of so many, so many expressions. But it’s like that. And when you work on your consciousness, when you attain a certain degree, of course then it becomes very interesting and important to observe the purity of it. How she plants a seed and that comes back to her with a body, with a given shape and how pure the transmission of it, you know. That there’s no defacing in the actual manifestation of that, or the actual growth of whatever it is from the inspiration. So, the better aligned your consciousness is, the more….

Now, a typical example is the architects of the Matrimandir. She gave out the thing and it was completely deformed in the whole process of execution. And that is the state of the human being. He is unable to receive it from a plane of truth and express it on this plane. There are these gaps in between; and that is what the descent of the three Powers is meant to do. It’s clearing up all those layers so that from one plane, of truth, let’s say, to this plane you have no deformation. Right now we are deforming everything. Everything we set out to do. We start out with that, we end up with this, and there is often no connection between that original…


What interests me is that you don’t focus much on meditation, or creating empty space in which one might have more likelihood to hear, or connect, or open up, or come into relationship with that inner voice. Because it seems a system like the mind would be very limited on being able to make that connection.


Yes, yes. You are right, and if you read The Tenth Day of Victory, you will see that there was a long period where I was made to just listen to that voice and that was really silencing the mind and focussing and concentration, where I could follow this one thread. As it is now, everything is a jumble in everyone’s head. Now, the important thing is that kind of silence of the mind. These things are very important. However you come by it. If you are able to do that in meditation, in quiet, fine, but there are other ways of doing it. But there are certain basics and that in fact forms a part of the integral yoga, these certain basic things. The quieting of not only the mind, – the vital, all of these have to be dealt with. But each person deals with it in his own way. Often it comes about just by a general development, you know, into the Divine Consciousness, shall we say. This possession by the Divine, more and more opening; and then you realise that the mind is not the same instrument it was before, the vital is not…Each of these are feeling…

So there are many ways of doing it. But very important that silence of the mind, the quieting of the vital so that it doesn’t interfere. These are basic elements that have to be dealt with, you know, but according to each individual…Now, it is very interesting that at the end the Mother specifically made the point about the chamber: this wasn’t for meditation. It wasn’t meditation.




And this is the key, because it is the key to this concentration of power and what she meant by that, you know. She left. She just threw that out and that’s it. She didn’t explain the rest of it. And she specifically said this is not meditation, this is concentration. So…


Can you share what your understanding of what that is?


Yes. Well, to me this was fundamental because just what I was talking to you about, about this concentration of power, that we are not in a position to sustain this. We crack under it. So this consciousness, this new alignment is for the purpose of being really able to contain this, to contain this force and therefore complete the journey and not collapse at some point. We are constantly experiencing collapses, you know. We cannot…our energies really break down. So I could understand it immediately when I read that. I said, Of course, that’s it. But other people might not.


What we are talking about is energy. You talked about that earlier and the accumulation of energy and the quieting of the vital allows that energy to build and to be accumulated rather than being wasted. And the quieting of the mind presumably does the same thing. How does the accumulation of energy work as it gets to a certain point? I know you have written that it widens the consciousness, does it also open up other planes?


It’s like fuel, you know. And you know, it’s like a fuel that then does not allow this kind of collapse that I am talking about, usually a falling back. And so this is really like a fuel that when you need it most it’s this impulsion.

Now, I know it doesn’t make much sense. But really speaking that’s what happens. If you don’t have that, you get to this point (indicates the fourth quarter of the Gnostic Circle) and you fall back. So this concentration is necessary in order to be able to…Which means this section which has been left void, – because this would have been the beyond, heaven, – this is now experienced in conscious awareness. So you need that accumulation to be able to experience a whole section of the wheel, which in terms of the experience of the human race did not exist. That’s why you had all the solutions which meant heaven beyond. This was the point of that Beyond, this 0˚ Capricorn. Then you went to heaven, then you sent…like they translate the Vedic term, Swar; they translate it as heaven. But is it really that? It’s the plane of Truth. Why up there? That’s our projection, that’s ours.

When you have that, you need that because you cannot experience this without that because you simply have not enough energy. So, to bring that down here, this dynamic aspect in life, the Divine here, to bring that here you need more of what is closed within, like releasing from an atom. And so this is quite literally like that. You cannot make that, you cannot experience what these points would signify unless you do have this addition. To get that you have to go through the rest of the process. You have to do the right thing.

Now I don’t want to make this too mental, because in effect it isn’t mental when you are living it. These are the lived experiences. They are not mental, they are a fact, you know. They are happening. So all of this is your poise. This is your relation with the Divine. Now, there are many aspects to this, you see. When we talk about centering, when we talk about a unitary creation, what are we talking about? We are talking about something else that we have positioned at the centre of our lives, of our consciousness. And this the ordinary human being does not do. You have an ego and you are a binary creation; and the Divine centre, that’s the void. Now, when this centering happens, of course it’s the Divine then that becomes that Point that holds, that organises, and everything converges on that then in your being. Now most people will not accept this. I can tell you quite frankly that if you give them the choice, they will say ‘no’. I want me, my own choices, my own da da da, me, myself and I.

And it is very hard to even recognise this, because your mind may be telling you that you want that. Yes, you want it more than anything else, but then your vital is pulling in a different direction entirely. And you are unconscious of what is happening. You have not been taught or trained to see these problems, you know…You cannot recognise it, therefore of course an outside help that you can trust in that is very important. But there are very few who are going to go the whole hog on this because most of the people don’t…Even the guides that are around, first of all they are not aware of what is happening. They are not aware, let’s say, of the almost physical impossibility for you to do this. Your structure…you come into this world sexually. You are born through a sex act and now they are discovering what I have been writing all along, about this programming of the cells. They are discovering in cellular biology something extremely interesting, – that your cells are programmed to die and that it is signals from other cells which tell them not to. Otherwise all cells are programmed and they would just die, and collapse. So, I have been saying the cells have a stamp of death. The way that we are born into this creation, through the sex act as it is now…and I have written this from The Gnostic Circle  on, all the way. You have the stamp of death. You come into the world, in a particular (way)…And what does this mean, this kind of unconsciousness where it is a totally unconscious act? Our births, our process of birth is unconscious. Nobody is really going to be in a position to tell you then what happens. What happens is you are a binary creature. You have a sex centre and you have maybe a higher mental centre. You are a binary creature, but that psychic centre, that soul centre is the void. And so all the myths will tell you this Kore, this Divine Daughter, gives birth to the Son. That is the description of what happens when the void is filled, that Son is born. The Divine Son is that Point and the myths have been saying that, but what does it mean?

Now, for a civilisation it works, for an individual it works. So you are structured in this way. You don’t know. You have never really experienced what it means to centre your life on that. And it is very difficult. It’s not easy, because you are used to ‘choosing’, to your ‘freedom’. All of that is nothing. It’s a total illusion that you live in. The only freedom is in the Divine, really. Otherwise you are really like these little puppets that I was seeing. Everybody is like that. There’s no exception. In the Rig Veda they call this creation of ours, this human creation, Martanda; children of Martanda, the eighth son of the Divine, Aditi. The 8th. And that martanda means the ‘dead egg’. Isn’t that interesting in biology now, with these cells, with death imprinted in them, death programmed in the cells? And thousands of years ago they were calling this creation the ‘dead egg creation’, the dead egg humanity. That’s the name they gave it. And look at it, it’s exact.

So, clearly what has to happen in this process, is we’ve got to re-programme things. We’ve got to get to that steady state, not where these are collapsing, and then they are eaten up, gobbled up by the living cell, so to speak. In other words, they are looking at cancer in a very different way. You don’t look at it as this uncontrollable growth. You look at it very differently. Those cells that are supposed to function to keep a balance in the system, to eat up, die and fall off, that is not working. It’s not that the other is exaggerated and growing. It’s that the other is not working. So obviously you get very excited, you think, we isolate the gene, we plant it in there and we set the process going again, and that’s it.

So it’s just a different way of looking at it. But then what does it mean? It means that at a certain point of course everything dies off, so you want to get to the point of this steady state, where this doesn’t happen; and this is quite feasible in the transformation of the physical.

But the point I wanted to make was that putting the Divine at the centre is not a simple matter. And yet this unity, this unitary creation in contrast to the binary, this is the key. And it’s very difficult. Most people…and yet, you know, the fears they have of doing this, – it’s all in the mind. I mean, it’s all an illusion. Because it’s not that you lose anything. You gain everything. You have the fear that, oh, if I hand myself over to the Divine, I’m no longer me, I’m no longer free, I’m no longer…and all kinds of cockeyed ideas. And in fact this is really an illusion. It’s nothing of the sort. But people do have these kind of fears.

So it’s not a simple matter. When we talk about it, yes, I can describe it and say it means a unitary creation. A centre, what is that centre? And then that’s where the process of integral yoga, the surrender that Sri Aurobindo and the Mother go on about (comes in). This is gradually to create this Divine Space, let’s say, where you’re consciously in tune with that; consciously being carried along by that Divine power and light. But it does make a big shift in your life when it happens. I mean, then certain things become irrelevant, unimportant, do not call forth your attention as much. And you gradually…I mean, naturally it does happen that other people are not experiencing the same state or interested in the same things and so you do for a while, until you find an adjustment…And of course a lot of people can’t bear that, you know. Can’t go through that sort of thing.


Then you find you have nothing in common with other people around.


Sure, that’s bound to happen. And like that there are many shifts that do take place. But the fears that people experience, especially when they feel themselves on the border of a shift like that, then a lot of people recoil and are quite panicked by this condition. And yet that is the condition of Fulness really. That’s the beginning of that flowering from within.


To still be able to make contact and to be there and to be becoming while you are still feeling that pull away is very difficult. Because I think you doubt the validity of your pull away because you keep thinking you’ve got to be drawn in and be present and connected and reacting to things.


Yes, it is also, I think, a stage that one goes through were there’s this sort of conflict in that regard. I think one of the most difficult aspects of Sri Aurobindo’s yoga to implement is this question of action in non-action. When to act, when to…This is probably one of the most difficult balances to achieve, you know, and it’s pointless to say it isn’t. It is difficult. I know what it’s like. For example, when I was seeing this Power in everything, especially in the initial stages – or in very, very powerful experiences of this – of course there comes that reaction where you don’t want to disturb anything, so you don’t want to move. You don’t want to because everything is a perfection, you see how it’s a perfection and you think, my God, how could I have done anything. That’s absurd, how could you DO anything, everything is DONE. And that is a very powerful experience. But yet you have to act, particularly in this work because there are things to be done. So you’re confronted with that and it is a sense of impotency in a way. Then you have to put it aside and you say, yes, but my participation is also necessary; and then you go on. So as you get more and more involved in this, of course you act always with that understanding that you are not denying the Divine your instrumentation which is very important. Which is what most of the spiritual people have done. They are really withholding that instrumentation and then of course, look at the world. I mean, it reflects that. So the real realisation, the finality is really that: where you are a conscious instrument. You’re not an instrument in ignorance and you are acting in the world on the basis of that.

But to get to that point, you understand, you need a certain grounding in knowledge. Because you can fool yourself very easily, you can say I’m acting…I mean, people go completely overboard and they become Divine Incarnations, they become all sorts of things. So I am not saying that this is easy. It’s not. But it is very helpful when you have already something so formidable in terms of…like a philosopher’s stone. You can touch base every now and then and really keep in tune.

That’s why all of this…Otherwise we would just sit here in silence and do nothing and give out blessings. Why all of this? Why did Sri Aurobindo and the Mother labour so much to explain, to write. How much Sri Aurobindo wrote and wrote and wrote, how many letters. The Mother, – how many talks, how many talks recorded, speaking all the time, you know. Why? Precisely for that. To create this body of knowledge where…I mean, it is a very big change in humanity that has to come about and it required this. I always feel I am clearing up the cobwebs, you know. I am doing that in India, I am clearing the cobwebs, constantly, constantly beginning with astrology, and then from there, you know, constantly clearing away the cobwebs. So they were doing that too. They just didn’t sit back and give out blessings. They laboured to explain, so that you would be able to have a guidance like that, very concrete. And you know, this thing that…, ‘it cannot be put into words’. They certainly found words. Sri Aurobindo never had a difficulty; and I, on the contrary, I love it. I know that it’s enhanced because I have a language. So for me that giving of the word is the final Body. I have never experienced a split. I have never experienced something that cannot then find its transcription. And if it doesn’t, you know it’s not the full thing. You know there’s a gap still. But of course this language is there. Without that of course I couldn’t have done it. It would have been impossible. That’s why the Mother couldn’t explain the plan of the Temple. She did say this is time, these are the months. She gave those keys. But she couldn’t go into the nitty-gritty of it because in effect the language hadn’t been formulated. It was thanks to what she did there that it was able to be done.

Then there’s no gap. You can really…The words, as I say, of it become an enhancement, a richness, a richness like an Indian temple with all those extraordinary sculptures on the outside, that are connected to this simplicity, this simple form of the deity on the inside; barren, you know, just the idol you see.

There are so may levels of this, you know. The human being has created a kind of accommodation in his life, but they’re such relative ways of seeing. I will give you an example of what we do and how we live as human beings and accommodate our inadequacies. You are driving along and there is a situation, a dog runs out in the street. A street like [this one?] here, two lanes, from the other lane he comes diagonally right smack at you. You cannot fail to hit him, there’s no way, and you kill the dog.

Now, you can interpret that in many different ways. I mean, you can look at it as – this was a symbol. I am going to a particular place, that crazy dog running right at me means I have to confront the situation I am going to face head on and deal with it like that. Or you can interpret it that, you know, something terrible you’ve done and you’re responsible for this and therefore what horrible thing is to await me where I am going, you know. There are many different interpretations.

Finally you come down to the fact that you killed the dog. So, a judge, a human judge would review the case and say, ‘It’s not your fault, you’re exonerated because you couldn’t…there’s no way you could not have killed that dog. He ran at you, he wanted to die obviously.’ And then you’re appeased, and you feel comfortable with that. You say, Well, I’m exonerated. Yes, it wasn’t my fault. But you come back to the point: you killed that dog. I mean, that animal chose to leave this plane by you killing him. So, your responsibility is still there. You did it.

Now our human justice accommodates this by making you feel relieved. And you have to prove your case, you had no choice, you couldn’t stop, the dog died like that…So therefore you are free. But, in a higher creation this does not happen. Accidents do not happen like this. Now this seems totally inconceivable, but it is a fact that you should anticipate. That situation would never arise because your consciousness would be such that you would never be the instrument for a destructive act. I am just trying to give you the example of a shift that is inevitable and will come. You understand? That set of circumstances, once something shifts, does not occur because you have a particular alignment in which all of these things…So you’re like…going like this, (indicates different dimensions passing through each other) you understand. You’re on a different dimension. Destructive acts are passing by you, you see.

So this is the situation that we are in as a human race. We have accommodated our whole justice system, everything, to the fact that we are not in that condition. We cannot control the elements in our lives. We are in this network in which there is no alignment or a centre. So therefore in a situation like that you judge. But you come always back to the fact of the act. It happened. Somebody killed someone. He’s coming at you, it was self defence, you kill him. Well, you say it wasn’t my fault, but somewhere inside you are thinking, But I still did it. This person left this plane at my hands. This was the channel. So, that can be looked at as a blessing or a bane. I mean, the point is then destructive acts, accidents do not happen in a higher creation. When this comes about, like I wrote in the VISHAAL in the Horse episode, there are no accidents when that Shakti is…What is an accident, what is not an accident? It is part of that play. So there are no accidents anymore.

Now it is very hard for us to conceive that such a thing would be possible. It is possible only when you accept the being and the becoming; and the being and the becoming as equally connected to and in the control of this power. Meaning you are in a dimension…you are right here, but you are in another dimension, really. I am sitting right here, but I am not in your dimension. I am not – I can’t say influenced by that dimension – I am not susceptible to this…and this I have proven in certain situations there in India. Very destructive situations in which…They were…it was just going by like this. You were in the middle of it and everything was happening, but they had no power to destroy. You were literally in another dimension. So these are the factual…These are things that are happening, that are moving on toward…you just bear in mind though that it may not be like this today, our human race…But it is moving toward that. And these are the initial stages. These are the first steps. The first foundations to achieve that.

Therefore it is a creation of harmony, you understand, and not violence. Non-violence does not mean not killing somebody, or turning the other cheek. That’s not what it means. It means no imposition of something. No forces from OUTSIDE creating a condition on any particular situation like that. It means being in harmony. So, at one moment you may have to kill, at another moment that is inappropriate, you know. But it is always being in tune with that and being that instrument, like the Gita says…


There’s no morality as we know it. The justice system we have…


That’s the point. Well, you see how it is collapsing. You see how everybody moans that…Our morals, where are they? But of course they have to collapse. We are talking about something new. So support is being withdrawn from that mental creation, which is the level on which…You know, up until now it has been the mind. The mind has been the highest. So it has determined all of this. And so morality was necessary, a certain code, a certain ethic, a certain…That’s the way we function, like I was giving you in the example of the dog. The judge agrees it wasn’t my fault, it was his fault. But that still doesn’t leave me very happy over the fact that, you know, nothing can change that. My responsibility, my connection with that dog. Why was I the one, then? What’s the deeper sense in that? How do you reconcile all of this? You cannot on the basis of our moral codes. Because something else has already manifested, albeit not known, support is being withdrawn from all of it. Therefore you are seeing a collapse all around.


The penal system.


Oh, the penal system. Now this is the point. Everybody knows that for all these people in jail, society bears a collective burden. I mean, we all know that in a part of ourselves. We say, those deprived kids they had no choice, you could predict where they were going to end up. And who is responsible for that? It is clear that…But at the same time, you must judge the acts of these people; so you cannot, it’s useless to say, Well, look, we’re all responsible so let them all go free. Obviously we cannot. We are at that stage of this impossible situation where everything is collapsing and the new way has not come about yet.


Juries now can’t come to any decisions. There’s just case after case of being deadlocked.


And this is going to happen more and more.


We’re at that stage where everything is collapsing…


Yes, now the question is that birth, that centre. All of that is there and what is happening? The very fact that that exists means that support is being withdrawn from the mental plane. It’s something else that’s there. This is not visible, as I mentioned before, the new world order, Yes, yes, rah, rah. Where is it? Definitely it’s not there. And yet everybody says, But wait a minute, the binary system…Now look at how interesting this work is. I was describing this as a binary system and did a whole yoga in the 80s. And right on time Gorbachov came in, right on time, I mean, extraordinary. Everything was going like clockwork, the whole collapse of the Soviet Union, right on time, everything. Perfect. By ‘89 the work was done and we started a new ennead and everything was done, exactly in accordance with this. Exactly. Fantastic.

I am working on a yoga that is dealing with the binary system. I gave birth to this thing, 1983-84, exactly. Recorded. I have written it even in the VISHAALS. I have had my journals full of it. And I am describing, like a scientist, what this means. Then on the world stage within months the whole thing starts; and then you have somebody like a Gorbachov who comes in and starts the dismantling of one pole and the whole thing collapses. And then you’ve got what? One super power. But everybody knows that the U.S. is not a super power. I mean, that that doesn’t pertain anymore. It doesn’t hold anymore. And so, the irony of it is you have somebody like a Clinton come in who, of all the presidents and leaders in the world, is the least likely to be able to play a role of carrying the whole world. I mean, he’s…whatever our opinion, I mean, he’s very young, he’s inexperienced. He’s all sorts of things. He’s not the likely candidate to be leading the USA in this momentous time where it’s supposed to lead the world. This is a phenomenal thing that is happening. But obviously. Because it’s not meant to be like that and it’s not going to be like that. So he will never succeed in playing that role. And he was obviously allowed (to come in power) precisely for that reason. That this isn’t the point now. That is part of the whole collapse. The whole thing has collapsed. We have not seen yet what kind of a system is going to emerge. We have seen it in the dimension of yoga and this work. But on the world stage, we are experiencing right now that transition when nobody knows what they’re doing.

Now, that centre being there, the supports are being withdrawn. So you have a penal system that goes nowhere. I mean, right now you don’t know how to deal with these things. And you see, people are being touched by this. So they are asking questions like, – Is it correct to pass judgments like that? Is it correct? That’s why juries are being deadlocked. Because finally you are analyzing in such a way, they are going to such depths in these questions that they don’t have the answers. Because on the moral/ethical level there are no answers. You have to go to a higher level. And therefore, when you…In India that’s why…They knew this. They knew. And the sage was above all of that, he was beyond all of that. But he was in a state, if you could call it, of a Divine Anarchy. He was in the Divine Consciousness. So the Brahmin, for example, was the highest there. The obligations, the duties of the Brahmin and what was allowed to him was much more rigorous than the lowest on the scale, the Shudras. They could possess things, they could do everything the Brahmin wasn’t allowed to do. (He) wasn’t allowed to have possessions, wasn’t allowed to…He could even make babies only at certain times of the year and under certain (planetary) configurations. He wasn’t apparently free, at all, had any choice. Whereas, the ones lower down had total freedom to do whatever they liked, as they liked within the parameters of their own caste. The higher you got and the freer you apparently were, you were beyond that moral thing but you had that inner – and this is what we are approaching: where each individual is going to be his own judge, let’s say, have his own conscience there, with that power to, you know…Ultimately this is what we are headed for. Now of course this is still in the stage of just breakdown.


Do you have any sense of when the new will begin to take hold?


Well the new is already taking hold in the sense that that’s why you see these collapses, and you see it happening very fast. Because that support is withdrawn and something else is taking its place. So it will go very fast, but I would say that during this Age of Aquarius, these 2000 years, or so, of course that’s when this whole thing is going to be established.

Now, that’s a long time, but at the same time, if you look and see what has been done in just these three decades, from ’71 until now, then you realise how fast we are going. I know that during my lifetime certain things have to get done. And these are pretty formidable things. I mean they can make an enormous difference in the world, and certain stages have already been reached and passed successfully, as I was just mentioning of the ‘80s, everything that had to happen then.

So, I believe that before the end of this ennead in 1998, several other things have to be established. Then what you have is a foundation, and from there you go building on that. And it can go very fast for certain people. It can be a slow and a terrible process for others. But for those who seek, it can be really the sunlit path. I mean, really consciously involved in this work of a total transformation of the Earth. And it will touch so many different spheres. Your politics, your arts, your culture, everything, everything, everything. As the Mother said, ‘It is a new world that is born, a new world.’

So you can imagine what that means. It’s not the old. It’s a completely new thing. And we haven’t…So to describe it becomes a bit useless. You can give an idea, because you can say, as the example I gave (the dog episode), in the new creation such things do not happen. But if they happen there is no judgment possible, because everything is in its place, you understand. You killed the dog because that was the channel by which he had to leave.

Now, you understand, in our world today, we cannot speak like that because everybody is going to say, I killed that man because I knew that he had to leave…Then you really get, you know, you go off the deep end! So you cannot. We have to go gradually to that point where these things happen without any trumpeting. They’re just happening. You cannot announce: this is what’s going to happen. You cannot do that. It has to just happen, you understand, because otherwise you would fall into these kinds of traps, and people misusing…

This condition of the world today, if you look at it, it is very hopeful in the sense that the collapse is what has to be. We have to get rid of these old forms of things. The energy has to be withdrawn from all of that, those supports.


A planned dissolution,


That’s right. That’s exactly it. Even physically, even your earthquakes, even your this and that. These are controlled actions of release of energy. Controlled so you don’t have one great big boom, you know.


And when you are living in that experience, yourself, then there is a hopefulness also.


Of course, I’ve never been happier. I look around and I think, boy, everything is really going fine. You know, you would be worried if these things were being propped up more. But provided…


What about religions? What about religions too?


Well there you have it too. And all the fundamentalist reactions, of Islam and all, that’s simply because they are feeling that withdrawal. And so they react. I mean, that we know. You know fundamentalism is always a reaction to this kind of dissolution process – and they come stronger. But usually, you see, those are the things then you don’t deal with head on. You just let them…They become irrelevant eventually.


These countries will cut each other up, it looks like.


And they will become irrelevant because the important thing is that this new creation must survive. This is the important thing. So, there are mechanisms to protect that. But even that…Now we could go on to something else: even the mechanism of protection is something very interesting. It itself has to provide its own mechanism, but that we leave for my next trip, because that gets a little bit too intricate here. But that is the whole point. The important thing is that the new creation survives. So the Mother was very much caught up with this fact. The protection of this. She knew very well…I mean, the destructive forces come at you, but because you were in another dimension…they were attacking you and they fell in the void because you weren’t there. Now this is actually the way it works. You were not there. This centering puts you…You are operating with different laws. They’re like formulas, you know, and they operate when you (are) centred. When you have that you are governed by different principles. So we are sitting here in the same room, but we may not be affected by the same play of forces. It’s a play of forces, you are not affected by the same thing. So, if you attack me in that state, in actual fact I am not there. I am not susceptible to the manipulation of forces that you can engender, you see.


Traditionally, if this is the language that has been used as being of a ‘higher and lower’, what’s the new language?


I don’t know, I often use that too. But higher and lower, then you have this sense of linear. It’s a spherical thing and then you have layers within layers. So it’s all played out on this physical plane. But we are talking about a play of energy always, remember. So these are laws that operate according to the poise of your consciousness. They come from that. You are aligned in that species, or you are in this one. If you are in this one, you are not susceptible to the play of forces of the lower. Let’s call it lower and higher. You are in another dimension. But you are right here. Why? How does this operate? Because that realisation permits a control in the circumstances, the play of circumstances. And this is why I say this work is unique. Because this has never been done. This has never been a conscious process, where consciously, you know, there is a play of circumstance, which being in here, you are at the centre, you are controlling this. That is, control – meaning those circumstances will always further the purpose of the soul point. That soul is the seat of the Divine Purpose in life. Your dharma, whatever you want to call it, the inner truth. Those circumstances then must serve that Purpose, whether they are negative or positive, they cannot escape serving that purpose. So you have an enemy, then he attacks you, that attack must serve that purpose, whatever. If you’re killed, that was the purpose. But of course you have to be certain of what you are doing, and this is possible. So this is what I mean. You are not susceptible to any lower…There are no accidents there. There are no other possibilities. When the Mother was saying, ‘Everything is determined, every single thing.’ What did she mean? That sounds terribly fatalistic, but this is what it means. In that operation there are not many, many possibilities. There’s only one. So therefore no choice. There’s only one, you know.

So that’s the meaning when I say ‘laws’. I mean susceptibility to a certain play of forces, some destructive, some…Nonetheless, the negative and the positive is still there because that is the condition of our world right now. Meaning, unconsciousness and consciousness. Meaning, some elements are used as conscious instruments, others unconscious. The negative is simply the unconscious. He’s not aware of that Divine Purpose at the centre. But he is still used. Like the Churning Myth.


You wrote about the Churning Myth


You see, that’s a beautiful example. You see how India…I mean, there’s no end to what India knew and knows. The Churning Myth. Perfect. Both tugging away…but there’s Vishnu above it all, who is the controlling power, the Divine. Above and below. He’s the tortoise, support of that axis, that churning stick. This says it all. This is one of the  most extraordinary myths describing the deepest essence of the material creation, and the Divine Manifestation in the material creation.


The forces of ignorance got overcome by fumes because they couldn’t see. They were susceptible to the ruse. And the Gods could see.


Blinded. But they did most of the labour because that’s where the power…


That’s interesting, they did all the work.


Because they thought they were in control.


Well, they were strong, they were strong, like ascetics.


Persephone, that chariot, those horses. Blind. But lead by the Divine; that was where all the power was. They drew the chariot. This is what I saw, and I said, Yes, of course. But that’s what has to be released. That is that extra energy that we need to become this higher creation. We need to have that release and you release it by conscious awareness. You release it by bringing all of that to the light, you see. Even within yourself when you say, I’m unconscious. What you really want to say with that…you want to release the energy that is locked there. When I say, your sleeping energies, this is what it is.


(Long silence)


I’m being impacted beyond my capacity.


I was just thinking that. I was thinking, (I’ve) gone a bit too far!


I’d like clarification. How would you perceive the dog story?


This happened to me. This happened to me just before coming here, so therefore I had a long trip to think it over and I had very heavy things at the end of that to do, when I reached my destination. So of course that’s why all of this was going on because…I mean, animals for me are like…I mean, this is the first time anything like that has happened. Of course it’s a miracle that it hadn’t happened, because Indian roads…If you ever come to India you will understand that the real miracle is that I have never done this before. That’s the real miracle. Now, beyond that, I mean there was really no escape for this mad creature. I was on this side…you know, we were two lanes and he just shot from the other side diagonally, straight at me. I mean, no way…and on the highway. Really no way. So I swerved around, hoping that he would continue fast, but he must have stopped and of course then I caught him with that wheel. Then I thought, Oh my God…You know, it was just too, too dreadful and everybody around just went AAAHHH also because you could see that there was no way to escape that fate.

But of course then going on and pondering over this, I said, well these things don’t happen to me like that. And of course then I understood what I had to do when I got to the other end and I was being really attacked. Not attacked, just certain situations coming at me like a mad dog. I mean, asking to be liquidated. It was really that situation. So, I thought about it and then I said, Well clearly this person, these two people that I have to confront…And this is really like the mad dog. There’s no way out. They are asking for it. I cannot avoid it.

And at the same time I thought, well isn’t this interesting, because we can say this is a symbol of what I have to do. O.K., and it clearly was. It definitely was because from what happened after I did go at it and liquidated this person; in terms of his obstructive powers, they were finished. I just went straight at it and dealt with it without even thinking about it. In fact I wasn’t intending to. But it did work out just like that. And there were two situations that had I not dealt with, then I would not have been able to come on this trip. In fact, I was setting out on this trip. So it was a very interesting circumstance. But at the same time I was thinking, isn’t this interesting. Because we can fool ourselves. I mean, the fact is that it’s inconceivable to me that I could have killed this animal like this. At the same time there was no escape. So I said of course, this is the situation. We can justify it by saying, Look, what are you concerned about? It was his fault, you know, he was asking for it. But I saw all the dimensions in this, and I saw really that this is just an accommodation. This kind of explanation – that it was his fault – is the lowest of the rungs. That is something I cannot accept. So I saw it in a different light. Of course it was a symbol, but even in that we can fool ourselves. But it was very definitely…The whole thing that I faced was exactly displayed in that situation. That force coming at me had to be dealt with like that. I had no choice, you know. Even if I would have wanted to, I had no choice.

But then I also saw…Okay Patrizia, you’re going along here…in another consciousness you anticipate, you know. Now, how? There was no way to anticipate that. I mean, the fellow just shot out suddenly, from a standstill position, just shot out. So there was no way to anticipate. But in the terms of what I’m talking about here, a force is working and either he goes this way…or something, but the whole thing…UNLESS, really, he has to leave this plane in that way. I mean unless you have to deal with that force in that way and there is no other.

But then you have to be very clear in your consciousness to judge these things. To observe these things in that way because you can fool yourself. You can delude yourself. You can say so many things. You can justify so many things; and that of course we’re not interested in doing. We are interested in seeing. We are interested in really…And we don’t recoil from things. If it was meant to be killed and I was supposed to do it, we must do it and we mustn’t recoil. Because in effect, I didn’t want to confront these two people. I knew that…Remember when I arrived I was saying, I’ve just been fighting all the say. I mean, it was…you had to…there was no way, you know. It had to be done like this. And in fact the moment that I did, it dissolved. I mean those obstacles just dissolved. The moment that I agreed and said O.K., you know, whatever, let’s go for it then. That was it.

So the point is, the moral of the story is that you have to be very honest with yourself. You have to be very honest about where you’re at. You cannot say I am above this moral thing and really this is something higher that I am doing. You cannot fool yourself. Since you are in that situation, all you have to do is just look without judgement and try to understand. So what I did then was I let the circumstances reveal the truth of that situation, which very soon, within three hours after that, they did.

So at that point then of course I did see it connected to a whole process that I had to do. But you cannot, you don’t judge. You know, you sit quietly and let the circumstances reveal the truth of that. What really was the meaning of this? Really.

Now, at that point then you could say, – and this has happened at Skambha, – you could say then that that dog was fated to die, clear. I mean our deaths are really probably the surest thing, the moment, the time, all of this is the surest thing. So that dog was fated to die and therefore he was used in this way so that I would get the message and go to…Because it was a very conscious thing. By the time I got where I was going, I had a good three hours more of the journey to ponder over all of this and say, Wait, this is a very unusual situation that I am in now. Let me see. Let’s go along with it, let’s…You know, and therefore I had that as a possibility.

So in a higher vision of that, you can say then that the dog had to die. Now, that he was used in that way by me can mean that I am very unconscious and that I am not doing what I have to do, that I have to have an impact like that to get me to do what I won’t. But in any case the dog was fated to die. The fact that he went out in that way was my ignorance. Needing that message in that way. It probably boils down to that: he was going in any case and that he, in actual fact, did a good deed. Because he helped me to see what I had to do.

But in order to do that you have to be pretty sure that you’re not fooling yourself, that you’re not…And that’s where a lot of people get off. Because they delude themselves, you know, and justify, don’t want to look, too painful to look. You know, you accept an easy answer. But if you really go down into it then, and, as I say, if, you let the circumstances reveal the situation, that’s what the answer to that was.

Along the way of that it was clear that the moral explanations are not sufficient. I would in no way have found peace just by thinking, well, it wasn’t my fault. That meant nothing, nothing at all. And that’s where our penal systems and everything lie. Who’s at fault? Prove. You did this. What does that mean? He’s dead, you know. He went out in this way. So why did he go out in this way? Why not somebody else? Why not the next car? Why not this? Why not that?

And then, as I say, then you watch, you let the circumstances, the play of circumstance reveal the truth of that incident. And it did very clearly because I went right at the mad dogs, two of them. Inevitable. I didn’t want to. There they were. I had to do it and all the time I was thinking of this. I was saying, Well, the tone’s set and there…you know, it really was…That was the episode of the dead dog. You see how one little thing like that can open up a whole series of seeings.


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